Do Presents Heroes Have Embedded Characteristics?

I'm not happy writing this because I'd like to feelmore positively about the Presents series (and its heroes!) than I do, but I think you've hit the nail on the head.  I've come to believe that the Presents heroes come straight from the cookie-cutter with the qualities that you list above ALWAYS, ALWAYS being part of their personality - and always being deeply offensive to me.

I've stopped reading the Presents line altogether because I have given up hope that any book in that line will have a hero whom it is possible for me to like.  I just hope that the "Harlequin Romance" line (their "Tender Romance" line, although "Tender" no longer appears in series title) will expand and flourish because the heroes in that line at least have a chance of being likable.

I'm glad you pointed this out because I had started to wonder why no one ever commented on this issue.

Each presents hero has some of these characteristics but not necessarily all, or has them in degrees.  And if you look at the Presents Extras coming out, it's a different kind of hero too.  I don't enjoy all Presents.  But I don't write the line off either, because there are some wonderful stories and authors.  I think you need to read enough to find an author you like, but I think this was said recently on another thread.

You can also look at several of these characteristics as positives too, or at least degrees of...they can't be ALL positive because the conflict frequently comes from them:

Arrogant - confidence

Controlling - this is HIS world.  He is a man of power.  And people are attracted to power.

Hot temper - Hot passion

Possessive - protective.  He might think of things or people (the h) as MINE, but as MINE, she will be under his protection.

Strong - reliable.  He is someone who gives his word and keeps it.

Tough - he knows what he believes and what he wants and he doesn't waver.  This can be a really admirable trait.

I have difficulty writing this type of hero which is why I'm obviously writing for Romance and not Presents.  But I read a lot of Presents.  There are some heroes I just can't fall in love with.  But there are others...oh, others.  Shane from Trish Wylie's firefighter book was one that I loved.  Or Rory from her current release.  Or Heidi Rice's heroes, and Nat Anderson's.  Come to think of it, I really really like the Presents Extras.

Donna

Dashing in , in haste as I have to go to the airport to pick up a friend (Trish Wylie) in a moment   and so forgive me if this is a little rushed and not as carefully argued as it might be.

 I'm tempted to say 'here we go again'  - and really Vince I have to say you're being just a tad reductionist on this - when reductionist is  the practice of simplifying a complex idea, issue, to the point of minimizing, obscuring, or distorting it.

There are no 'embedded ' characteristics that have top be in the perosnality of a Presents hero - and to create a list like thuis analyses the story  and the charactres in a way that is like dissecting a rainbow and trying to find it's essential components.

You say that I can be a biot of  atease with my heroes and that they are not  the Presents heroes you're expecting but this is because you have this idea that a Presents hero must have these characteristics and that is what make him the Presents hero. I refute that - and I'd go along with the readers who feel that a  'hero' with ony those characterisitics that you ndescribe is not a hero I would want to read about - and very definitely not a hero I would be able to write about as  a hero.

 I'm sure I've said this before and I'll probably have to say it again  - the point about a Presents hero - as indeed it is true to a degree of any hero  in any line - ids that during the time of the book, the hero can appear to be  : 

Arrogant, Controlling ,Tough , Possessive , Strong , Intimidating, Domineering

 Impatient , Demanding , Aggressive , Chauvinistic, Has many lovers , Strong appetites , Condescending , Strong sense of entitlement , Lacks Mercy , Hot Temper , Seeks Revenge, Stingy with his love

Because of the heat of the conflict and the high emotional stakes invoved. This does not mean that he actually is all of those things - or in fact any of them to any real degree - but in the story he is seen through the eyes of the heroine - and the heroine (at the risk of her being labelled your other provocatively emotive word  - a 'nutter' ) is in a state of emotional; flux. crisis,  lack of balance, whatever you like to call it and so is not seeing this guy straightt all. She thinks he is being arrogant, merciless or whatever because she doesn' t know all the facts - in the same way as when he feels he needs to behave in ways that can be interpreted as arrogant or merciless or whatever then he too is doing that because he doesn't have the whole story.

 And stingy with his love?? Oh dear me , no - the point is that this man loves so deeply and so intensely that he holds back until he's sure that the heroine wants that force of love from him - a bit like Saint Raul   He loves as strongly and powerfully as he does everything else. 

San Franciscogal  said :  I've come to believe that the Presents heroes come straight from the cookie-cutter with the qualities that you list above ALWAYS, ALWAYS being part of their personality - and always being deeply offensive to me.

I couldn't agree less - Presents is one of the lines where there is the widest range of styles and approaches to the stories we write. We have strong,  forceful heroes with a powerful impact but it's an impact that if you do reduced it to 'arrogant, unyielding male'  you really do distort the stories and the individual strenghts of each author.  Some many not work for you but it's just not true that they are  'cookie cutter' novels. I could tell, say, a Michelle Reid  hero at a hundred paces, and an Anie West one is totally different, as is an Anne McAllister  - and so, I'm told , is a Kate Walker.

There is no reason at all why you should like any  author in Presents at all - another thing I've said is that the high voltage conflict and emotional intensity is not for everyone - but  to reduce the  heroes - and so the books - to 'cookie-cutter' tales with  these elements always always part of their personality-  it's just not true.

And I'll repeat myself here - those elements should be seen to be the response to major stress and emotional conflict  - the armour that the man wears, not his deepest character traits. 

Must dash - the car is here for the airpport

Kate

"Your comments about Trish Wylie’s having good examples of honorable heroes was rather telling since these books were not originally written as Presents – they were adopted into the line."

No Vince, they were not adopted. Adopted implies that they were written with another line in mind, and then shifted. Trish's books were written for, and bought specifically as, Modern Extras (and as we know, Modern is to the UK what Presents is to NA). As a brand new sub-line, intended to be marketed as (and this is my wording) a younger, hipper version of Presents. They were released first in the UK and then, when they did very well, were brought here as Presents Extra, or sometimes even straight Presents.

The same goes for Heidi Rice, and Natalie Anderson, and many other authors.

So for the sake of argument, the scope of the line seems to be widening, which means the list you provided doesn't hold up as well as a yardstick. There is more variety than ever. One just has to be willing to look for it. I know I will not like every Presents novel I read. But there are many authors writing for the line that I really enjoy.

FWIW,

Donna

Vince, you certainly know how to stir things up!  And while many folks enjoy your provocative line of thinking, and you usually have a good discussion as a result of your blog entries, you have to be aware that on occasion your strong opinions may result in some friction.  I think it's important to allow for differences and to accept that there is more than ONE way to view things, and yes,there is a male and female Point of View.  But that's not to say that either is preferred nor 100% infallible or that the strongest opinion wins.

So, I'm just stepping in before things escalate....and I fear from reading this that they are JUST about to erupt, LOL, to say the following and to remind everyone that:

eHarlequin.com promotes a positive atmosphere based on a mutual love of
reading and respect for others. While you may not always agree with the
other participants, we ask that you express your thoughts and
opinions in a courteous manner.

That being said and following my own guidelines, I'll go on record now and state that if this discussion degenerates further, I'll have to pull rank and delete it.  I feel that both sides have adequately expressed their points of view and if this continues, there's no place to go but downhill.

Jayne

Thanks Donna, I always worry that someone will be hurt unnecessarily where no hurt was intended, mainly because they might not understand our longstanding committment to agree to disagree. WE know these discussions are convivial, but some others might interpret the remarks to be antagonistic, especially without a long-standing history here with our community.

Jayne

As usual, Vince, I enjoyed reading your blog and as I looked at your list I thought, 'hmm, all the reasons I am not normally drawn to this line.' But then I realized that this is how the h of the book is seeing the H. The reader interprets the H through her eyes. Maybe my view of the H has been too simplified. I think I will need to look at reviews of HPs and select some that I think I stand a chance of liking. 

I liked reading KW's comments--they were instructive and give some of us a different way of looking at this line, basically some reframing. Donna, I also appreciate your insights.

Wow, what a meaty topic - and another great reason not to get stuck into my current WIP, so I can't resist sticking in my two cents here. First off, I congratulate you Vince for being brave enough to start this topic (and I absolutely don't think we should delete it!) and like Donna and Kate and others, I'm going to be equally plain-speaking in my reply. I hope that doesn't upset anyone - no offense is intended. 

Right, now to the meat. Firstly, Vince, I've got to say that your list of 'embedded characteristics' depressed me. Not because some of those individual characteristics have not been true of the heroes I've written, but because the very idea of a reader picking up one of my books and 'assuming' the hero is all these things without him actually having to be any of them is depressing. Personally, I don't believe I write heroes with 'embedded characteristics'. And now I'm going to tell you why. 

I know when you write for Presents there's something called the Presents Promise, something that the reader expects from the books, and that may well be what you're referring to when you talk about what a reader expects from the hero. But what is that something and how does it relate to the hero? What your list implies is that readers expect the hero to be an obnoxious, sexist, overbearing bore and they expect them to stay that way through the course of the book - and I think that's very far from the truth. Where's the fantasy in that, where's the romance, and where's the fulfillment.

As a reader myself I want a jolt of fantasy but I want it to relate to reality in so far as I can believe that this is a guy I could actually fall for myself. Same goes as a writer, I couldn't write a hero that I couldn't fancy myself. If he's aspirational or wealthy he's had to work for it. If he's sexist he's going to be forced to confront his prejudice when the heroine stands up to him. If he's domineering he's not going to get away with it because the heroine is no doormat. If he's stingy with his love there's got to be a good reason — has he been hurt in the past, is he scared to trust, etc.  

The point is, I hope each of my heroes are individual, they may have some of those characteristics, they may even have all of them (although I don't think any of them have as yet). But the point is why do they have them? And if they do have them how is the heroine going to relate to that, because she hopefully is her own person too, with her own weaknesses and strengths just like the hero? And how are they both going to grow and change and overcome their flaws and build on their strengths during the course of the book? And that's I think were the real fantasy element of the books lie, not in the fast cars, or gorgeous locations, or magnificent homes, but in the concept that people can learn to love each other despite their flaws or even because of them. The high emotional intensity of the books and the huge conflicts that often need to be overcome certainly up the ante, but doesn't that make the HEA when it comes that much more fulfilling?

That high emotional content of course is not to every reader's taste and I totally understand that, but I find it interesting that it's the readers who don't like Presents here that have responded saying they expect these 'embedded characteristics' and have talked about 'the cookie cutter' approach and not the ones that do.

I'm not going to get into a protracted debate about the difference between the 'newer' Presents (the Modern Heat element, which I write for) and the more 'traditional' Presents which has been touched on here and debated before in great detail. Let's just say that like the heroes, each Presents author is an individual with a unique and distinct voice that brings their own concept of how to fulfill that Presents Promise to the table. All I can say is 'vive la difference' because frankly it'd be hellish boring if we were all writing the same book in exactly the same way. 

But speaking entirely for myself, if I was listing the essential characteristics of my heroes I'd also add in 'Devil-may-care Charm',  'Vulnerabilty' and last, but by no means least, 'A sense of humour'.

Okay, I'll shut up now and get back to work on my next fully rounded, emotionally complex and entirely individual Presents hero. But great debate Vince, I'm enjoying it.

Heidi 

I'm really chuffed you liked The Mile High Club (which is of course The Millionaire's Blackmail Bargain in disguise).

Hi Heidi !

And FF - yes I had noticed that you were being  and keeping

But I know what you were thinking!!

Kate

funny use of emoticons?

Didn't you get the memo, Donna? The emoticon was modeled on the real me!

ROFL, actually Vince, there's a game I've been wanting to play with you guys for a while, based on renaming classic literature with Presents style titles....but I'm saving it for later, when the Presents editors have time to come and play with us.  They've promised, but they're up to their ears busy just now.

Jayne