If the romance you’re reading does not have a “black moment,” would you feel cheated? I ask this because some academics, who write about the romance genre, insist that the “black moment” is an essential element of a romance novel. (Essential element in academic talk means that without that element, it is not a romance.)
In my analysis of the romance genre I find that there is no need of a “black moment” in order for a book to be a genuine romance.
Sometimes when I’m reading a romance that is rather “by-the-numbers” and not very inspired, I get this uneasy feeling near the end of the book which makes me think, “well now I’ve got to get through the “black moment” so that I can earn my HEA”. Sure enough, the “black moment” comes only to be resolved within the requisite number of pages. In some other books the “black moment” never comes and that makes me feel very please with the story.
I am referring to the classic cliché”black moment” in which everything is going well between the lovers only to have a “black moment” occur because of a misunderstanding (often contrived) which is easily cleared up when the misunderstanding is uncovered. This type of "black moment" exists because a formula calls for a “black moment”.
I think there can be a “white moment” where the status quo is broken by an insight which reveals how the relationship could come together. This might happen in an inspirational romance where differences in religious options are keeping the lovers apart or where one is angry with God because of personal losses in his life. Near the end of the story there is an epiphany, or a “bright white” moment of understanding which opens the way for a loving relationship. To me, the “black moment” seems like the easy way to heighten emotion whereas the hard way would be to create this emotional impact through the natural progression of the story line and character development.
I’d rather see a “climax” similar to any other fictional genre wherein the lovers are already committed to each other when a tragedy hits, which is fully justified by the story foundation, and which serves to emphasize how much the two mean to each other.
Frankly, I’d like to do away with the term “black moment” and just tell aspiring romance authors to simply write their stories with great climaxes.
What do you t think?
Thanks,
Vince
“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince
Black and blacker
Vince, you have the most interesting blog posts. I'm sure there are exceptions to the 'must have' black moment, but I can't think of any. I think most stories need a crisis moment and that's the black moment in a romance. I don't like the minor misunderstandings either --
Janet
Janet Tronstad
www.JanetTronstad.com
Dry Creek Sweethearts now on shelves
A Heart for the Dropped Stitches coming in July 2008
Two more contemporary Dry Creek and a historical Dry Creek coming in 2008
Black moments, white
Black moments, white moments, conflicts of any kind.... some combination of conflict needs to be there.
But with romance novels, a cliche I've found is that during the height of a conflict, the hero all of a sudden condemns the heroine for something she did, and discards her, and they have a depressing period where they can't see their way back to each other. .... maybe this is just a Harlequin Presents alpha male thing.... I read a lot of HPs.
I would love to have that stop, because it's not fun at all, it's not enjoyable, it's not a positive life-changing conflict, it's very depressing, always about a trivial misunderstanding or lie that some third party was spouting. I don't like to see this "blame and persecute the heroine" moment turn up REGULARLY in books.
Interesting, Vince....
Black moments. I hadn't really thought about it like that. Most romances do follow that formula - using different variations, of course. But there are exceptions. As you were saying about the inspirationals, there's the reverse black moment, when the Characters were faced with the conflict from the beginning of the story and then see the 'light'.
Also, I've read a few stories (not nearly enough though), with surprise twists. For instance, one example that comes to mind is Catherine Marshall's Christy. It's not actually a true romance, per se, though it certainly has romance elements. In christy the reader is lead to believe she'll marry the minister - her obvious choice through most of the book. In the surprise twist at the end, rather than Christy and the minister facing their 'black moment' and coming out as a couple, Christy realizes she's in love with the turbulent Dr. McNeil instead. Catherine carefully weaved the doctor subtly throughout the book. It was craftily done with a huge impact. I still get tears in my eyes by the time I'm through with this book (have read it three times because of it's long length). Then ending is just *amazing*. This same technique could be written into Harls and Sils, given the right characters and plots.
I agree that heroine bashing, or manipulation by the male character, gets pretty old after a while. It leaves me wondering, if the characters were real people, would that kind of behavior stop once the vows are taken, or would there always be a cycle of mistrust and put-downs? H'm. Something to think about. On the other hand, romances are meant to be fun - and not too realistic, else it would be just way toooooo depressing.
Didn't mean to write a book here!
Vince!
You DO have the most interesting posts! They always make me think and that's wonderful.
The term black moment is the crisis, simply stated. It gets to a point where the conflict comes to a head and you think all is lost. These 2 cannot get past their differences and make it work. This is fundamental in ANY story writing, not just romance.
It's like diamonds being forged out of coal, if you know waht I mean. As I'm writing I'm aware that each of my protagonists needs to have a growth arc. Something that shows what they wanted at the beginning is not what they want at the end. What they believed at the beginning has shifted. The only thing that's going to make that happen, IMO, is something strong enough to shake things up. That the option of going back to how it was before is so much worse that taking that leap of faith at the end. I think you'll really see that perspective in my next, to be honest. Sometimes that black moment becomes a very harsh look in the mirror for the characters.
I know you've read Marriage at Circle M. Sometimes you have more than one black moment. When Grace tells Mike her secret in the middle of the book, that was a real low point, don't you think? But it wasn't the TRUE black moment. The true black moment was when Mike held that mirror up to Grace and told her the truth about what she was afraid of.
Saying that every romance needs a black moment is simplistic but at its core, true. It is part of the basic structure. What it doesn't mean though is that the black moment has to be contrived or engineered. It MUST come from the conflict, and not be a monkey wrench thrown in. There is no specific page it must happen on.
Black moment is no different than saying the story must have a meet, a developing relationship, and an end. The black moment is, simply, the climax. And so I think what you really don't like is those books that have their black moments contrived...that feel like they are there because they HAVE to be rather than evolving from the story's conflict itself.
Donna
THE SOLDIER'S HOMECOMING, Romance, March 08, Aus/NZ April 08
FALLING FOR MR DARK AND DANGEROUS, Romance, August 08
THE RANCHER'S RUNAWAY PRINCESS, Romance, January 09
http://www.donnaalward.com
http://www.donnaalward.blogspot.com
Hi, Donna! I'm sorry...
...I hope I didn't upset you. I didn't mean that a story doesn't need a climax! Actually, I thought Vince was referring to a 'black moment' as in what's found in HP's, for example. Those sometimes contain pretty harsh confrontations. The alpha-male can border on cruelty (but not always) in some of them. In fact, I just read an HP where I couldn't quite justify how the man treated the woman after they'd just slept together, because he thought she was so awful. He actually abandoned her for a while, after delivering a heavy carping on her head. Maybe it's just me, but if he thought she was that terrible (and, of course, she wasn't) did he really need to sleep with her to start with? I imagine that scene could've been toned down a bit, although, of course, everybody writes differently.
Your books aren't like that, at all. They're more gentle, and so the climaxes aren't as 'black' as Vince (I think) was referring to. Unless I just misunderstood him...
Of course not!
You didn't upset me at all, and I agree completely to be honest. FWIW I like my alphas tough but with a very human side. I'm reading a Kate Walker right now, and her hero is tough. Really tough. But he's also very human, and grieving and believable.
Vince said "To me, the “black moment” seems like the easy way to heighten emotion whereas the hard way would be to create this emotional impact through the natural progression of the story line and character development. "
I agree with this too, to a point. I would definitely say that the emotional impact needs to be there through the story line and character development. And that way the black moment - when it occurs - is not out of the blue, but a part of the story and character arcs, leading to the satisfying ending.
I seem to have given myself enough rope for today...I need to get to work on my WIP!
Donna
THE SOLDIER'S HOMECOMING, Romance, March 08, Aus/NZ April 08
FALLING FOR MR DARK AND DANGEROUS, Romance, August 08
THE RANCHER'S RUNAWAY PRINCESS, Romance, January 09
http://www.donnaalward.com
http://www.donnaalward.blogspot.com
Hi Janet85 -- Who Causes the most Black Moments?
Hi Janet85:
Thanks for your comments! Your post really surprised me.
“But with romance novels, a cliché I've found is that during the height of a conflict, the hero all of a sudden condemns the heroine for something she did, and discards her, and they have a depressing period where they can't see their way back to each other. .... maybe this is just a Harlequin Presents alpha male thing.... I read a lot of HPs. “
My perception of the black moment is that it is most often caused by the heroine and not the hero. It’s the heroine who thinks she just can’t marry a man who is not a Christian (in an inspirational) or cannot marry a man in a dangerous profession (she usually has lost a loved one – either husband or father) or has been hurt in a relationship in the past and another such hurt would “kill” her.
It seems to me in nature, the man asks and the female has the veto power to say no. I’ll admit in Presents novels the heroes are rich and powerful and are always worried that females are after their money and don’t really love them. Thus if they think the heroine is a gold digger, they are quick to dump her. But that is often the price of admission to the Presents theater.
My impression that heroines initiate a majority of black moments could be distorted because I’m a male. I’d love to know what others think.
Do heroines cause a majority of black moments?
Thanks,
Vince
“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince
Yes, Vince, they do
And there's a simple explanation.
WHile there is a hero and a heroine, most romances are heroine focused. We are in the heroine's shoes more, so it's her perspective in the black moment we see more.
After reading your last post, I'm a little scared for you to read my August book. LOL.
Donna
THE SOLDIER'S HOMECOMING, Romance, March 08, Aus/NZ April 08
FALLING FOR MR DARK AND DANGEROUS, Romance, August 08
THE RANCHER'S RUNAWAY PRINCESS, Romance, January 09
http://www.donnaalward.com
http://www.donnaalward.blogspot.com
Donna, so true, the
Donna, so true, the heroine's perspective is given. During the black moment, we see her decision/reaction to the conflict.
So about Vince's question about "who initiates the black moment".... I think it might be too simplistic to say it's one or the other. The heroine's action/reaction might initiate a separation (black moment), but the hero's actions/reactions also are what lead to the conflicts/choices made.
My perception of the black moment is that it is most often caused by the heroine and not the hero. It’s the heroine who thinks she just can’t marry a man who is not a Christian (in an inspirational) or cannot marry a man in a dangerous profession (she usually has lost a loved one – either husband or father) or has been hurt in a relationship in the past and another such hurt would “kill” her.
The black moment is caused by both hero/heroine's actions/reactions to the conflict, imo. I don't read inspirational, maybe we don't read the same kind of books. But in Presents, the hero has usually rejected the heroine or been unwilling to love the heroine, so if the heroine breaks it off, she does it because she can't live without his love/trust. (That's the reason for the separation, frequently in my reading)
It seems to me in nature, the man asks and the female has the veto power to say no. I’ll admit in Presents novels the heroes are rich and powerful and are always worried that females are after their money and don’t really love them. Thus if they think the heroine is a gold digger, they are quick to dump her. But that is often the price of admission to the Presents theater.
I think I LIKE that the female has veto power. I think that's how it should be, kind of nature's way of putting the woman back in a position of power. Men might be stronger physically, but because of social rules, women have social power and their rights/choices are protected not because they could physically fight for it, but because they command some respect as people/women. In Presents books, this "power of women" is especially important because the alpha heroes are so dominant. They need to relinquish some power in their lives to the heroine, it makes them warmer people and softens them. Seeing an alpha male let the heroine have power over him, let her decide their future, let her choose him.... mmmm!
My impression that heroines initiate a majority of black moments could be distorted because I’m a male. I’d love to know what others think.
Heh. I don't know if it's because you're male, I haven't heard a lot of male perspectives on romance. But yeah, black moments don't come just because of the heroine. Everything that happens in life is action and reaction. The VETO thing is not about the black moment. To me the veto thing is about the POWER division in a relationship between male/female.
Black moments = ending the relationship, choosing a separation... IMO.... and I've seen both the hero choose to let the heroine go (for her sake) and the heroine let the hero go (because she can't live without love, or she can't give him babies).
Janet: "Was there a "Black Moment" in "Dry Creek Sweethearts"?
Hello Janet:
Come to think of it, do you remember if “Dry Creek Sweethearts” had a distinctive “black moment”? The hero, Duane, was undergoing a life change, (with great foundation since every original member of his band had already done so) and the town did not totally accept him as one of their own.
When the heroine got sick and could not sing with him in church, he did her job in the cafe. (This is hardly a “black moment.”)
I just can’t recall an all-is-lost “black moment”. In fact, I always thought that all it would take for the romance to work was for the hero to finish his life reevaluation. How do you see it?
Thanks,
Vince
“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince
Veto Power....
"I think I LIKE that the female has veto power. I think that's how it should be, kind of nature's way of putting the woman back in a position of power. Men might be stronger physically, but because of social rules, women have social power and their rights/choices are protected not because they could physically fight for it, but because they command some respect as people/women. In Presents books, this "power of women" is especially important because the alpha heroes are so dominant. They need to relinquish some power in their lives to the heroine, it makes them warmer people and softens them. Seeing an alpha male let the heroine have power over him, let her decide their future, let her choose him.... mmmm!"
Ooh, I like that, Janet <GG>. I second that!
It's true, Vince, that the majority of target readers of romance are females, so I am very glad that hear a man's POV on eharlequin. Keep your blogs coming! My husband, bless his heart, reads my manuscripts and helps me edit, but he will be the first to admit that he wouldn't be reading a romance for the heck of it!
I'm not sure I understand that... but I love him anyway!
Sometimes I think that in romance novels, the man's viewpoint needs to be a little more in depth. It makes him seem more real if we know more about his feelings. At least it does to me. Of course, I suppose that that really depends on what kind of man, huh? LOL
"After reading your last post, I'm a little scared for you to read my August book. LOL"
I know you were talking to Vince, Donna, but I'll certainly be reading that book of yours.
You keep intriguing me by dropping hints to your characters.
What Was That?
Hi Janet85:
I’m a little concerned about your quote below:
So about Vince's question about "who initiates the black moment".... I think it might be too simplistic to say it's one or the other. The heroine's action/reaction might initiate a separation (black moment), but the hero's actions/reactions also are what lead to the conflicts/choices made.
It looks like the man is guilty if he initiates the black moment and he is also guilty if the heroine initiates the black moment because it was his actions that caused her to do it. (I think I’ve heard this argument before.)
I also think the “veto” power goes much deeper into the nature of things and applies to most birds, and probably most higher animals. There must be a very strong survival reason for this.
BTW, I am now challenged by this question. I am going to record who “causes” the black moment in my next ten romances. (I better avoid Presents because even I will admit the hero is almost always guilty in these books.) I did this once before on a question and I was totally wrong. I hope I do better this time.
Thanks,
Vince
“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince
Vince
Vince, you had asked about the black moment in Dry Creek Sweethearts. The black moment belongs to the hero -- when he realizes the old men of Dry Creek will never accept him so he can not make that his home and he is uncertain if Linda will live anywhere else.
Janet
Janet Tronstad
www.JanetTronstad.com
Dry Creek Sweethearts now on shelves
A Heart for the Dropped Stitches coming in July 2008
Two more contemporary Dry Creek and a historical Dry Creek coming in 2008
I don't blame the H/h for the crisis (but cheating merits blame)
Dry Creek Sweethearts.... sorry Vince, never read it.
I’m a little concerned about your quote below: .... It looks like the man is guilty if he initiates the black moment and he is also guilty if the heroine initiates the black moment because it was his actions that caused her to do it. (I think I’ve heard this argument before.)
I didn't mean it that way. I just meant that it's a reciprocal thing, where BOTH the hero/heroine's actions/reactions lead to the black moment. It's like a volleyball game. Back and forth with the ball, and eventually that ball is going to drop somewhere. It's not a case of blame.
BTW, I am now challenged by this question. I am going to record who “causes” the black moment in my next ten romances. (I better avoid Presents because even I will admit the hero is almost always guilty in these books.) I did this once before on a question and I was totally wrong. I hope I do better this time.
Hehe. See I still don't see a black moment as being 'caused'. I think the question is more 'who dumps who', and it's either going to be (A) the heroine because she can't stay with the hero without love/babies/future/marriage or (B) the hero dumps the heroine because he thinks he's not good enough a man and she deserves better, that she deserves someone she of her choice. I don't see it as an issue of 'who is to blame', there's often very good intent and self-sacrifice behind the separation.
For me... the actions that a hero/heroine DESERVE to be BLAMED for.... usually occurs at the start of a book, where there is bitterness and misunderstanding. By the end of the book, the hero/heroine are usually willing to forgive and look past any hurt out of love for each other, and their actions are selfless. I don't blame anyone for the crisis moment.
There is ONE thing I freely admit to blaming the hero for though.... cheating on the heroine! It's soooo often the hero who does the cheating. I really hate to see the hero self-righteously throwing his affairs in the face of the poor innocent heroine, who he believes betrayed him. It always turns out that she didn't betray him, she was a victim, and he actually did have multiple affairs that she's going to have to live with. Not fair!
Here's an example of a book I read where I entirely blamed the hero for his excessive sleeping around!
2719
Innocent Wife, Baby of Shame
Melanie Milburne
Harlequin Presents
UGH! The hero thinks the heroine cheated on their marriage, the heroine was ill and has no memory so she thinks she cheated too. She punishes herself and hates herself for it. The hero is angry as hell, he's cold and verbally abusive to her, he calls her slut, whore, wanton, soiled goods… nasty subject of a romance novel! They were split up for two months... and during that time HE has multiple lovers. She has one night that she doesn't even remember doing... he flagrantly sleeps with other women as soon as he's thrown her out and started separation proceedings. This is not a good HP storyline. I could have lived with it if the hero had restrained himself and actually turned out NOT to have been having sex with other women during the two month separation, but two measly months went by and he was sleeping with other women, and he kept right on doing it until a few days before he started sleeping with the heroine again. Major ick factor. Rating: 1/5 stars, personally I couldn't stomach this storyline at all, and my rating reflects the storyline.
Heroines
See I don't see a black moment as guilt of either party but a culmination of conflict coming to a head because a resolution doesn't seem possible.
Both characters are to blame, imo or should be as they both need to grow during the course of the book. Look at The Soldier's Homecoming. Shannyn had some growing to do, and she had to face up to decisions she made in the past. But the hero had work to do to...and not just in healing the wounds he'd sustained while he was in combat. It was also in the form of realizing that he couldn't make decisions unilaterally like he had when he left the first time. If you look at the ending, you'll see what I mean. They both had to learn trust and respect.
Vince, I do love your posts like this. The discussions are great.
Donna
THE SOLDIER'S HOMECOMING, Romance, March 08, Aus/NZ April 08
FALLING FOR MR DARK AND DANGEROUS, Romance, August 08
THE RANCHER'S RUNAWAY PRINCESS, Romance, January 09
http://www.donnaalward.com
http://www.donnaalward.blogspot.com
Is it a “Black Moment” for “Black Moments”?
Hello Janet & All:
The “black moment” you mention in “Dry Creek Sweethearts” took place in Chapter 11 of a 15 chapter book (that had an epilogue) and it did not involve something the heroine did. Moreover, the fact that some town people (three old gossipy men) didn’t want him to stay in town seemed to fall short of meeting the threshold of hopelessly blocking the course of true love. Even at that point in the story, the love of the hero and heroine was stronger than that obstacle. As such, I didn’t see this, at the time I read it, as a classic romantic “black moment”. I just thought it was an interesting plot development and that a real “black moment” would come nearer the end of the book. I also expected the “black moment” to involve the direct interaction between the hero and heroine. I was very pleased when there was no further “black moment” because the story worked perfectly well without it. This is the way I like a story to be written. It’s like a river twisting and winding naturally with the landscape all the way to the sea. I thought the story was perfect.
Your example of a “black moment,” is going to make me have to re-evaluate the whole concept. I would prefer a “black moment” be made of sterner stuff.
I think it hurts the prestige of the romance genre to refer to romances as having to have a “black moment”, thus making the genre appear more formulaic. I can’t imagine Louis L’Amour or H. G. Wells talking about a “black moment” when they were referring to a story climax. I also think talk of “black moments’ trains each new generation of romance writers to insert what they conceive as a necessary element into a story whether it is needed or not.
I really like Kate Walker’s definition of romance:
“A romance novel is the story of a man and a woman who while solving a problem , discover that the love they feel for each other is the sort that comes along only once in a lifetime – leading to a permanent commitment and a happy ending.” P.3. “Kate Walker’s 12 Point Guide to Writing Romance”
I might add that I think this is the definition of an “idealized” romance which leaves room for legitimate variations on the romance theme as when widows’ remarry.
As far as I can tell, if a writer meets the requirements of the short definition given above, then the story is a romance. Notice that there is no need for a “black moment” nor is a “black moment” required in the RWA definition – at least, as of the last time I read it. When academics write or teach that romances need “this element” or “that element” in order to qualify as a romance, I don’t think they are doing the genre any justice.
Thanks,
Vince
“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince
Clarification on the male POV
Hi Everyone:
I believe that so far in these posts there has been some reference to what I called my male POV. I did not mean the POV of the hero in the story. I meant the POV of a male reader reading a romance. At the risk of being a little too much like a post-modernist, I believe when a man reads a romance and a woman reads that same romance, they are not reading the same book. As such the experience is very different.
For example, a woman asked “why would a man sleep with a woman he did not like?” Do you think a man would ask this question? Do you think a man might answer “because she let me”? I’m not saying this to be funny. I’m trying to show that what we take to be objective reality is really a construct of what we expect to see. (Not 100%, of course, but to a large degree.)
As far as who is at fault for the “black moment,” from what I’ve read here it could be anyone or anything or nothing at all. It could be fate. Certainly a hero caught cheating could be said to cause it and vice versa. The heroine’s mother dying and her having to raise her little sister could cause it.
This “black moment” thing is far more complex than I ever imagined.
Thanks,
Vince
“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince
Vince, the "because she let
Vince, the "because she let me" makes me grin. But it's not what I'd want in a romance hero of course. As a woman, I like my romances to cater to my woman's preference for a hero that will love and be faithful and make the woman feel special.
In a romance novel, once the hero meets the one, the heroine.... fidelity would be nice, for the rest of their lives. *grins* This is coming from a girl.
Different stokes for different genders. LOL
Structure
As an author, and as one aspiring to publication not very long ago, I never considered the need for certain elements as I was writing. I never thought "I have to do this, and it needs to be done here."
It also doesn't bother me when someone says you need those elements. If you look at ANY genre fiction, there is a certain structure. And readers expect that structure. Deviating from it is either really successful or really not. But if you look at good screenwriting, good suspense writing, good romance writing....it's about form, not formula. The form is your skeleton. The story is the body built around it. Each one is different and intricate.
For me, the intensity of leading up to the black moment and then getting there is what keeps me turning the page. But as a reader, that's me. I like dramatic. I like action.
I recently read a book that drove me insane because the heroine did a whole backstory dump in introspection. I wanted to see it in real time. I kept reading hoping to find some conflict. Unfortunately all the conflict could have been solved with them sitting down over a coffee and talking plainly. It all felt very passive to me. There was no black moment.
I missed it.
:-)
Donna
THE SOLDIER'S HOMECOMING, Romance, March 08, Aus/NZ April 08
FALLING FOR MR DARK AND DANGEROUS, Romance, August 08
THE RANCHER'S RUNAWAY PRINCESS, Romance, January 09
http://www.donnaalward.com
http://www.donnaalward.blogspot.com
The Professional Makes it Look Easy
Hello Donna:
I think I can agree with everything you are saying if my conclusion is right about your point of view. I take it that the “black moment” is more a teaching tool than a literary requirement. If the story is well written, the reader won’t notice the “black moment” as being a “black moment” because it will so naturally and justifiably flow from prior events. If the “black moment” is contrived simply to be there, then it will stand out as “The Black Moment” and not be appreciated.
This may be shorthand for saying: “readers like good writing and object to bad, uninspired writing”. I think a lot of people think romances are easy to write but from a creative point of view, I find them very hard to do well. The key is to do the “same thing but differently”. It’s like a composer told to write a symphony but who is not allowed to use all the notes everyone else has available to use. Composing this way would be hard to do. Mathematically there are far less variations in which to be creative given fewer notes. Just consider how much more variation would be available if the romance genre did not require a HEA!
As you mentioned, “Marriage at Circle M” was very different. Given two “black moments” and given their traumatic nature and employing the Don Quixote “mirror” treatment – with all the emotion that implies -- was a shock. I actually thought the story might be too emotional for some readers – especially those that have lost a child. I think you took a risk few are willing to take.
I don’t think you will ever have trouble with a problematic “black moment” because your work is too original and creative and maybe right up to the edge in daring (for HR anyway). I don’t know what you are going to do in your next book but it is going to go to the top of my reading list when it comes out. I’ll download it the day it is released and then I’ll hope for the best.
Thanks,
Vince
“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince
I know How You Feel Reading a Book You Find Abusive
Hello Janet85:
I’m sorry that you read a book like “Innocent Wife, Baby of Shame” in which you found the hero so abusive. I also think that in a romance, not only should you expect to have a “hero that will love and be faithful and make the woman feel special” as you wrote, I think you have a right to have such a hero. There is an implied promise of a HEA in a romance and I am not sure a hero like the one you described in “Innocent Wife, Baby of Shame” is a candidate for a HEA.
I read a book last year that I thought was unbelievably offensive and when I criticized it, the fans of the book were all over me. I’ll bet there are fans that love “Innocent Wife, Baby of Shame”.
I think you are just taking a chance of getting a book like that when you read a Presents. I think that the possibility that you might get an offensive book makes the other Presents books more exciting and edgy. I believe it is a little like NASCAR. The fact that there are crashes and drivers killed from time to time keeps the fan attention at an emotional high unlike any other sport. The fans love their drivers and don’t want there to be any crashes but because crashes are a possibility the drivers are far more heroic personalities. I think Presents may put a few “car wrecks” out from time to time to keep things interesting. I never know what I am getting in a Presents – but that is what keeps me coming back. The other lines have consistency. Presents seems to be a grab bag. With Presents it may be a better idea to choose authors rather than titles.
Thanks,
Vince
“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince
my reading patterns, lol!
I read a book last year that I thought was unbelievably offensive and when I criticized it, the fans of the book were all over me. I’ll bet there are fans that love “Innocent Wife, Baby of Shame”.
hehehehe... actually, I read about four or five different reviews of that book here, and a few of them had comments... and most of what was said of the book was critical. Some of the comments were "diplomatic", but none were glowing really.
I think you are just taking a chance of getting a book like that when you read a Presents. I think that the possibility that you might get an offensive book makes the other Presents books more exciting and edgy.
Oh I know what you mean! That's what I get from liking alpha males and reading so many HPs... but yeah, there ARE those things that I just love about HPs that drag me in (I've never stopped reading HPs). I'm in my 20s, I like having young heroines, I like having heroes under 40. I enjoy passion, the thrill of a fast-paced HP, the delightful confidence/dominance of an alpha male, the way an alpha male falls in love and softens for the heroine, the passionate arguing/fighting of a love/hate relationship, the sharp bite of a fiesty heroine... mmm!
About other lines... there are things that repel me personally, they aren't the kinds of books I feel like reading. Super romances are a tad too family oriented for me, Steeple Hill too religious, Everlasting Love too depressing and about lost love and lost lives, Intrigue is too much about suspense/action for my preferences, Romance is a little too innocent for me, Historicals aren't my thing, Kimani's I haven't really come across many or read the covers of 'em, a few Spices have tempted me but they don't guarantee a HEA or have a clear cut hero/heroine who will end up together.
I never know what I am getting in a Presents – but that is what keeps me coming back. The other lines have consistency. Presents seems to be a grab bag. With Presents it may be a better idea to choose authors rather than titles.
Presents are pretty consistent in terms of passion and emotional intensity. I avoid certain plotlines I dislike. I choose the books I read by author to some degree, but mostly by reading back covers, front teasers, reviews, and flipping through the pages of the book to get a FEEL for it.
Soooo yeaaaaaaah... that's my reading patterns....
Janet85
Janet ... regarding other lines .... there are authors in other lines that I think will appeal to your fondness for alpha heroes .... if you don't mind Ranchers, Susan Fox writes incredibly intense Harlequin Romances with delicious alpha heros ... the passion is toned down only for details ..... and Lucy Gordon also writes some wonderful Harlequin Romances usually set in Italy, I find her heroes to be alpha .... I think you'd really enjoy Adrianne Byrd in the Kimani line, I think her online read is still up if you want to sample her .. she's witty and fun with some real emotion too .... also, most of the Medicals are intense though the passion depends on the author as that line is a mix of all levels of sensuality ... but authors like Amy Andrews, Alison Roberts, Olivia Gates, Carol Marinelli, Sarah Morgan, Marion Lennox are more in line with your reading taste ... in fact, if you go right now to the online reads and click on the one in progress by Alison Roberts you'll find a coupon for 40% off Medicals for eHarl bookstore ... great way to try new authors :)
hi Vince .... interesting discussion ... in honesty, I've never really thought about the "big black moment" except for when it's been contrived and that's been a rare occurrence esp. in the Harlequin lines
~~ KatherineT ~~ I'm a Harlequin Addict, and I'm proud of it!
~~ Quiet Canadians ~ 2008 Book Challenge Blog
Janet85
Janet ... regarding other lines .... there are authors in other lines that I think will appeal to your fondness for alpha heroes .... if you don't mind Ranchers, Susan Fox writes incredibly intense Harlequin Romances with delicious alpha heros ... the passion is toned down only for details ..... and Lucy Gordon also writes some wonderful Harlequin Romances usually set in Italy, I find her heroes to be alpha .... I think you'd really enjoy Adrianne Byrd in the Kimani line, I think her online read is still up if you want to sample her .. she's witty and fun with some real emotion too .... also, most of the Medicals are intense though the passion depends on the author as that line is a mix of all levels of sensuality ... but authors like Amy Andrews, Alison Roberts, Olivia Gates, Carol Marinelli, Sarah Morgan, Marion Lennox are more in line with your reading taste ... in fact, if you go right now to the online reads and click on the one in progress by Alison Roberts you'll find a coupon for 40% off Medicals for eHarl bookstore ... great way to try new authors :)
hi Vince .... interesting discussion ... in honesty, I've never really thought about the "big black moment" except for when it's been contrived and that's been a rare occurrence esp. in the Harlequin lines
~~ KatherineT ~~ I'm a Harlequin Addict, and I'm proud of it!
~~ Quiet Canadians ~ 2008 Book Challenge Blog
Some More Reading Ideas -- the Alpha/Beta Hero
Hello Janet85:
Is there some reason you didn’t mention Desires? Maureen Child writes an Alpha/Beta male, (her words) who is Alpha in protecting the heroine and Beta towards her needs. For a female, I would think this is an ideal hero. She also places a premium on honor in a hero. You might read my reviews here on Maureen Child’s three “Kings of California” books. Also, I thought the NASCAR series has great heroes and the books are very well written. I’m not a NASCAR fan but after reading a few of these romances I’d like to go a race.
I don’t think you mentioned Blaze either. I didn’t read a Blaze until last year because I thought they would be very weak in plot so they could spend more time in the bedroom and actually the six books I read had much stronger plots than an average romance. I have not read an objectionable Blaze and I particularly like Samantha Hunter’s heroes. I also think any Presents written by an HR author will be acceptable.
IMHO, the best Mediterranean hero is written by Lucy Gordon who married one and writes about Italy -- where I lived for three years. Lucy Gordon will take you to Italy and give you a tour.
Also, I’d like to “ditto” everything KatherineT wrote. If you think you could read a historical and you want a very honorable warrior hero and some very good history, I’d like you to try Michelle Styles “The Gladiator’s Honor”. Read my review here so you know it's not some “blood and guts” thing a man would like. I read very few historicals but I will read Michelle Styles because the history is very good but she always keeps the romance as the central focus of the story.
Well, I think you have some reading ideas now.
Thanks,
Vince
“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince
KatherineT... thanks for
KatherineT... thanks for the recommendation, I'll keep those things in mind if I'm expanding outside my current TBR pile. *grins*
Is there some reason you didn’t mention Desires? Maureen Child writes an Alpha/Beta male, (her words) who is Alpha in protecting the heroine and Beta towards her needs. For a female, I would think this is an ideal hero. She also places a premium on honor in a hero. You might read my reviews here on Maureen Child’s three “Kings of California” books. Also, I thought the NASCAR series has great heroes and the books are very well written. I’m not a NASCAR fan but after reading a few of these romances I’d like to go a race.
I do read Desires. If I didn't mention it, it was just because it seemed the convo was about Presents. I like Desires, though I don't read the entire line. I read the Desires that attract me because I know the author's work or I like the story from reading the back covers and front teasers. Nascars, i'm not much of a car buff, though I do have one Nascar book buried in my TBR.
I don’t think you mentioned Blaze either. I didn’t read a Blaze until last year because I thought they would be very weak in plot so they could spend more time in the bedroom and actually the six books I read had much stronger plots than an average romance. I have not read an objectionable Blaze and I particularly like Samantha Hunter’s heroes. I also think any Presents written by an HR author will be acceptable.
I read Blazes as well. Love 'em. I read them for the steam and for the friends-to-lovers plots and for the equal attitude towards sex (both genders get some without being "whores vs. virgins")
IMHO, the best Mediterranean hero is written by Lucy Gordon who married one and writes about Italy -- where I lived for three years. Lucy Gordon will take you to Italy and give you a tour.
I've enjoyed her books before.
Also, I’d like to “ditto” everything KatherineT wrote. If you think you could read a historical and you want a very honorable warrior hero and some very good history, I’d like you to try Michelle Styles “The Gladiator’s Honor”. Read my review here so you know it's not some “blood and guts” thing a man would like. I read very few historicals but I will read Michelle Styles because the history is very good but she always keeps the romance as the central focus of the story.
Historicals.... I am open to reading them if the PLOT appeals to me. I've read probably a dozen or two historicals. Which for me isn't much, considering how regularly I read Presents, Blaze, Desires, and now Nocturnes as well.
Thanks for the recs guys. I like talking about tastes in romance books!
Oh wow, Vince....
Your post just made my day.
And yes, you understood my point perfectly. And I love your music analogy. Symphonies, concertos...all have structures as well. But what is on the staves just varies so much from composer to composer.
I have to laugh at your risk taking comment. I don't think i'll ever write "light" romances...at least not and do it well. I always end up being gritty. If I told you what I was doing now in my current ms you'd laugh. It's definitely one of those "all in the execution" things.
When I wrote The Soldier's Homecoming I knew I was taking a risk. I had substantial revisions on it, mostly on focus and not the actual story itself. My editor told me something I will always hold on to. It is better to take the risk. If something is too much or doesn't work, they can pull me back. But by pushing the boundaries, and not shying away from the tough subjects, I'm hoping will create memorable characters.
I don't know if you are a fan of Liz Fielding's or not, but she's a little impish in that department as well and I applaud her for it. And she does write characters that stick with you...and somehow manages to make you laugh and cry. She's been a great friend and role model for me.
Thanks...and now that my pages are done for the day, I get to do something VERY risky....clean my house! LOL
Donna
THE SOLDIER'S HOMECOMING, Romance, March 08, Aus/NZ April 08
FALLING FOR MR DARK AND DANGEROUS, Romance, August 08
THE RANCHER'S RUNAWAY PRINCESS, Romance, January 09
http://www.donnaalward.com
http://www.donnaalward.blogspot.com
The First Result is In! The Heroine Did it.
My first book finished since I began looking for who initiated the “black moment” -- it's the heroine.
The book is Janet Evanovich’s “Back to the Bedroom” and the heroine called off the relationship and moved out of the hero’s house because he would not get a job. He was independently wealthy because he won the lottery and he enjoyed drawing cartoons. You might even say this was her fault because she knew from the start exactly what he was like. She is a very hyper type “A”.
Please note: this is just for fun.
P.S. I loved the book! Excellent
Thanks,
Vince
“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince
Oh and your recommendations
Oh and your recommendations to Janet85 were right on IMO. All wonderful writers and with a Lucy Gordon HR you can't go wrong. She has her first PRESENTS out this month actually and I just bought it. I'm looking forward to seeing how and if it differs from her Romances.
Donna
THE SOLDIER'S HOMECOMING, Romance, March 08, Aus/NZ April 08
FALLING FOR MR DARK AND DANGEROUS, Romance, August 08
THE RANCHER'S RUNAWAY PRINCESS, Romance, January 09
http://www.donnaalward.com
http://www.donnaalward.blogspot.com
The heroine did it....
Oh Vince, that line just made me want to say...
In the kitchen, with Col. Mustard and the candlestick?
LOL
Donna
THE SOLDIER'S HOMECOMING, Romance, March 08, Aus/NZ April 08
FALLING FOR MR DARK AND DANGEROUS, Romance, August 08
THE RANCHER'S RUNAWAY PRINCESS, Romance, January 09
http://www.donnaalward.com
http://www.donnaalward.blogspot.com
Lucy Gordon's PRESENTS book
Lucy Gordon's PRESENTS book is in my TBR! *big grin* I'll be getting on that one soon....
And yeah... the heroine did it? Tee hee. The Clue reference is cute. Vince, I think you and I (if we read the same book) could go on and on debating who was responsible for what conflict... and by the end of it I know the answer would be "both the hero/heroine contributed to the conflict".
Hmmmm, Vince your little
Hmmmm, Vince your little experiment just might net the results you expect to find. And if a woman reads the very same books you are reading and they get a different opinion, are you both accurate?
Your male POV may create a self fulfilling answer.
This blog question and conversation has been very interesting to read and I do believe that the type of book each reader prefers may alter the 'who dun it' aspect of each conflict. It could be argued that it is the set up to the 'black moment' that caused the break. So if the the h broke it off, what caused the break? Her emotional response to the H, or the H's actions that caused her emotional response. A little of the what came first the chicken or the egg.
Is there are male proclivity to 'blame' the woman and a female proclivity to 'blame' the man? Will I see every conflict as male driven and you see the same conflicts as female driven?
For me? This question has created more questions than answers. Does that make it a great blog? LOL
My head is beginning to spin.
Nancy
sheandeen@gmail.com
^^ what she said *nods in
^^ what she said
*nods in agreement*
Chicken or Egg?
Nancy's quote: "It could be argued that it is the set up to the 'black moment' that caused the break. So if the the h broke it off, what caused the break? Her emotional response to the H, or the H's actions that caused her emotional response. A little of the what came first the chicken or the egg."
I like that, Nancy. Quite witty. Makes me totally agree. No doubt it does depend on what line the particular example of a book comes from. Some have more aggressive H's, and others more human and gentle H's (even if they are rough around edges). Vince has posed a question that definitely spurns opinions rather than actual answers, don't you think?
The "Black Moment" as a story idea.
Hi: Janet85, Nancy, Amanda
I think you are right about the “black moment” being so complex. I’m sure a philosopher could write a book analyzing the phenomenon.
For example: the hero and heroine are living together at the guy’s house and he is very happy with the way things are. She wants to get married so she moves out to make him see how much he will miss her (and perhaps make him suffer). This is a “black moment”. He could call her “bluff” and get another girlfriend or he could finally discover how meaningless his life is without her and come running back with a ring and a proposal.
The hero above is going to insist, 100% that the heroine caused the “black moment”. Everything was fine until she pulled her “drama queen” stunt. The heroine, on the other hard, is going to insist that the hero caused the “black moment” because of his failure to commit. She iseven going to be upset that she had to resort to such drastic action just to get the hero to act in an appropriate manner.
Now, a man reading the above passage and a woman reading the same passage are not reading the “same” book. To the woman reader, this may be a pretty good book. To man, it doesn’t make any sense. Why would anyone write something like this? What’s the point?
I think this is why you are never going to see male readership of romances expand much above 10%. There is nothing wrong with the way romances are written. They just don’t make much sense to men.
You might ask, “How can I read them, then?” First, I am a trained philosopher who got in under the tent by reading Maureen Child Marine romances. (I was trying to find mistakes: like having a Sergeant Major out-rank a Captain.)
I read one Marine story and I felt like it was really nice being the hero in that book. So I read more. In fact, I think I’ve read all Maureen Child’s Marine romances. They made sense: brave man protects women and children. (BTW, I never caught one military mistake in any of the Maureen Child Marine stories but I found a few funny ones in other romances.)
Lastly, I have been trying to learn the language. It’s like learning Latin but more confusing because the romance language uses the same words that men use. Imagine learning Latin and all the words are also English words but they mean something else? It would be very easy to get mixed up and misinterpret things. I keep learning that what I thought I knew was true, is wrong.
Given that there is this dichotomy; can anything be made of it by romance authors? It would seem that a really good series of romances could be created based on this phenomenon. How about a romance where the characters really do come from Mars and Venus and really do speak different languages? Perhaps they could develop a sign language which works but which also causes neural problems? Maybe men and women are forbidden by law to speak to each other in their own language. There could be a linguistic “Romeo and Juliet” -- language-crossed lovers defying authority. This might make a good Noc-Bite as a trial balloon.
What do you think?
Thanks,
Vince
“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince
I think this is why you
I think this is why you are never going to see male readership of romances expand much above 10%. There is nothing wrong with the way romances are written. They just don’t make much sense to men.
You might ask, “How can I read them, then?” First, I am a trained philosopher who got in under the tent by reading Maureen Child Marine romances. (I was trying to find mistakes: like having a Sergeant Major out-rank a Captain.)
I read one Marine story and I felt like it was really nice being the hero in that book. So I read more. In fact, I think I’ve read all Maureen Child’s Marine romances. They made sense: brave man protects women and children. (BTW, I never caught one military mistake in any of the Maureen Child Marine stories but I found a few funny ones in other romances.)
It's nice to hear how you got into romances. I think men reading and liking romances is a great thing. I know that not all women read romances, and fewer men can appreciate and enjoy them. Enjoying romance is about enjoying love and wanting deep love. (If it's not love a reader enjoys, there's always porn or erotica) I really do like the idea that some men can enjoy romance.
About the people who choose NOT to read romance, men and women.... I think that some of the reason for that choice is aversion. They don't know enough about the various romances to find a line that really fits and appeals to them. The exposure they have had to romance has been to books they found lame, corny, sexist, boring, or various other things. Finding a line or individual books that you really enjoy is great, I think more people would be happier if they had more love in their lives!
Lastly, I have been trying to learn the language.
By this I think you mean the "way a woman understands a relationship, vs. how a man does".
I keep learning that what I thought I knew was true, is wrong.
Is this about understanding women? Understanding women vs. men's reactions to romance novels? If you want a woman's perspective on an issue, you can probably safely ask and receive on this forum filled with lots of ladies with opinions. About understanding the theory behind romance, that's a much more philosophical and never ending thing.
Given that there is this dichotomy; can anything be made of it by romance authors? It would seem that a really good series of romances could be created based on this phenomenon. How about a romance where the characters really do come from Mars and Venus and really do speak different languages? Perhaps they could develop a sign language which works but which also causes neural problems? Maybe men and women are forbidden by law to speak to each other in their own language.
Hmmmm! You're right about men and women operating on very different levels, seeing different things when looking at the same thing. I think that if two people are thinking differently, they are operating at cross-purposes and are likely to misunderstand each other's motives and crash and burn as a relationship. How can this be gotten past in a real life romance or in a novel? Well... I think learning love, recognizing love, admitting and sharing love changes a person and makes you think in more forgiving and tolerant ways about the foibles of your man/woman. When you love someone fully, you can love every quirky thing they do, know the way their mind works and love the way they think, even if it's different from you. Even if you find some things negative, you can still respect it and live happily enough. You made a point about a man seeing a woman as a "drama queen" during a fight.... I think it's important for a man to love his drama queen, even during the height of the drama. We have to find ways to get through fights with love and respect for each other. It's not right for either party to think badly of the behaviour of their partner, a fight needs to end with re-establishing tenderness and respect for each other.
Most of what I've said is about romance, not the issues of men reading romance.
About men reading romance.... it's a good idea what you said about a Noc-Bites idea, to have the POVs of the male and female. To me, it's not a good romance unless you know both the POVs of the hero/heroine! As a reader, I need to know both of them love deeply and see an insight into their feelings. I don't want the hero's POV to be automatically rose-coloured and feminine, it actually is good to have the reality check of realistic male attitudes... and it provides some comic relief....
I think that if romance writers showed both POVs a little more realistically, then male readers would be better satisfied. HOWEVER I think we also get to a point where the female readers don't want to know the unromantic realities going on in men's heads. Romance books still are sold in the majority to women, and you do have to give the customer what he/she wants, tailor the books to the known audience. They can be willling to do what they can to appeal to both genders, but if that typ