Make Mine Supers (9)

I've NEVER been No. 1! Woohoo! Although I posted and then it gave me a nasty little message saying that "this discussion is closed" and I realized we must've been archived! So here I am in the new digs. 

Shelly,  tell us more about this character flaw study. I confess,
I've never considered the character's flaws as detrimental to the story
if they weren't "just right." When I start a story, I usually start
with the heroine, except for my Halvorsen boys because they were
already part of another story's back story. But generally speaking, I
see HER first. I don't actually know her issues but I get a "sense" of
who she is. Then I dig a little deeper by having a conversation with
her. It's amazing the things my characters tell me. I used to do this
as a kid with my stuffed animals and dolls. I had a character naming
sheet, with all my inventory of animals and dolls, with personality
traits as well. Geesh, if that wasn't a sign that I was meant to be a
writer...anyway, I think for many romance writers, that fatal flaw can
usually be traced to the conflict of the story and every single one of
us has struggled with that damn thing. It's a slippery thing that we're
always trying to hold onto. Sometimes we get it, sometimes it squeezes
right out of our hands like a greased pig and we have to chase after it
again.

Oh, BTW, I'm blogging over at romancejunkies dot com. Come on over and chat (please).

Kim 

for getting so far behind on the last board. 

My Internet connection seems to be up today, and it has been for a few days, so I'm going to hope it's a trend, but I have to send blanket congrats and hugs as appropriate because I'm sure I'll miss someone!

Roz, hugs to you and Denny (gentle ones, there), and best, best wishes that all goes well.

I think Deb's gone to the beach again--or are you back, Deb?

Congrats on the wedding/divorce/wedding to Holly and Ellen!  Congrats on the sleeping/roommating to Holly and Susan!  I'm so glad y'all made up! 

Carrie, I hope the job's going well!

Caron, re: house swap--any time--except I'd kind of like to hang out, too!  I picture a talk-fest that might rival Super-board chat!

Marcie, hugs on the crazy neighbor!  (Our own just tried to build a treefort in our yard.  But you know, they just want to swim in our pool and build bonfires during drought/burn bans and erect forts in our yard.  Nutty, yes, but not as nutty as yours, for sure!)

EllenT, I'm so sorry I missed getting to meet you and Ronda and Kay for dinner.  I've suffered some chat/Smokies envy.  Sending you safe wishes during Ike's arrival.

And--character flaws.  I tend to write heroines who cannot ask for help. I'm not really surprised as it tends to be my flaw, too, but I think it's a fine line between growing through taming a flaw and making the character annoying.  (Not sure I always handle it on the right side of that line.)  Have you all heard of Carolyn Greene, the Plot Doctor?  She does an amazing workbook and one of her questions concerns discovering how a flaw can become a strength and vice versa.  I'm going to mull that over for the synopsis I'm supposed to be writing. 

Nice to be back!

Anna

Anna--Good to see/read you today.  I agree that when a person gets behind on the board it's hard to catch up and know what to say to whom.

Kim--You're always number 1 in our books.  Good comments about the character flaws.  As a kid I also made up characters and gave them histories and clothes and jobs.  I thought it came from living in a really small town.  But one lucky enough to have a well stocked library.

We're off in ten minutes to the hospital.  Thanks everyone for good wishes for Denny.  I'm sure he'll do well.  This is the second of two back surgeries.  Same neurosurgeon who I really have confidence in.  I'm taking books with me to read.  Hopefully will get through two.  Then I can casually leave them in the waiting area for other nervous waiters to enjoy.

Roz

Love the conversation about flaws...

One thought, while a flaw can be a strength it works the other way as well -- a strength taken to different extremes can also be a flaw. This feels like splitting hairs, but I really think it provides a different view than coming at the flaw first and turning it into a strength. I think it's also more difficult for characters (or people in general) to think of their strengths as flaws. They tend to say "I'm honest, that's a good thing" -- unless they are hurting people around them, etc. For instance, and you can see I do this a lot:

Someone who is TOO responsible becomes arrogant, rigid, or controlling (Colin, About Last Night..., Ian Fascination, Brett, Pick Me Up, and Gina, from my upcoming Texas Ranger Blaze -- this is one I return to a lot for whatever reason).

Someone who is too independent becomes unreachable and defensive (Sarah, Friction), and someone who is too adventurous can be thoughtless or immature (Miranda, About Last Night...).

Someone who is too kind or caring can be a pushover (Charlotte, Flirtation), or someone who is too eager to please others can lose touch with their own needs, or become resentful or closed off (Joy, Talking in Your Sleep).

I like taking it from the perspective of someone's good points and flip it inside out. Then, picking apart how this applies in both good and bad ways, in external and internal conflict, is the next step, though it does seem to work out sort of naturally once I know their deal, I don't plan it out all that much.

Sam

Can I be a professor? Professor Todd. If only I knew something to go with the great name. I'll abstain from craft talk today. I've been listening to too much election coverage (it took over from games) and my brain is mush.

All this talk of hanging out with Anna and meeting Ellen makes me think I really need to get that passport application in....or, as said before, lure people to Toronto and hang out there. Not this year, though....with all the wedding stuff for ds I was there three times in four months. Lovely place, but I've had enough for now!

Fringe was riveting...I didn't expect to be able to sit still for it for over two hours: not a problem. And speaking of Toronto, I think U of T stood in for Harvard. I have photos from our first Toronto trip of that beautiful ceiling and staircase and walkthrough (notice complete lack of architectural terms--sorry not to describe it well enough that it's clear which ceiling and staircase and walkthrough. The beautiful ones.)

Ellen, you are the source of many smiles. Were you just riffing on inuksuk or do you really want to know what it is? In case you want to know, it's an Inuit marker--you know those stone ones that look sort of like stick drawings of people?

Deb, Love by George was such a great title. I can understand you not being as keen on the new one, but they must think readers will be attracted to that concept. And as Roz said, the most important words on the cover are Deb and Salonen.

Kim, what an honoUr to be banned! You join good company.

Roz, best wishes to you and Denny today.

Caron

How close are you, Ellen Too? Will you evacuate?

Caron

I probably won't be affected by the storm surge because there is a rise in land that put me above the water a good bit and the water near is a bay which is surrounded by land except for a ship channel.  But from the winds-- I'll be getting the full strength if it comes ashore in Corpus.  If it  comes ashore further north (up the coast) wind strength depends on how far north it hits.

As for evacuating -- that is the puzzle.  First the only place I could evacuate to would be my older brother's place (down the coast ) south of here.  And traffic would be horrendous and dangerous.

I missed some stuff from the last thread. Sorry. We have a saying in our family (to explain why we'd drive miles out of the way after making a wrong turn): We're Salonens, we never go back. This could be a serious character flaw, as Sam pointed out.

Kim, I've been chasing that greased pig for chapters. He finally slowed down and Wow! The clues were visible in the grease on his sides. I'm surging ahead with more confidence, now.

I'm at a point with my current heroine where she's looking back at the mistakes she made and how those shaped her life. This is a part of character development that I love. The self-revelation. Ah-ha. I'm not a freak just for the sake of being a freak (substitute appropriate flaw) I became a freak because...I needed this or was hurt by this or completely missed this....you get the idea. These are the Clif Notes, Caron, I'm in a rush today. Must shop for my daughter's b-day tomorrow.

Anna, I love guilt-free posting. Only 11 to catch-up on. 

Roz, will thinking about you both today. 

Caron, I caught Fringe, too. Very compelling. I already set it up to record every week. But I have to say, the best part for me was the 60-second commercial breaks. LOL. Not really, but, dang, that was refreshing. And you're so sweet (and Roz) to give me a little name recognition. I wish.

Gotta dash. 

Deb

You're building a good base for your story, thinking of flaws standing in the characters' way, and you're addressing that need in Supers to show the characters' growth. You're reminding me of high school English classes, which I haven't thought about for a long time. The 'tragic flaw' that leads the characters where they don't want to go. Except all of us would give Hamlet a happy ending.

Caron

I'm all by my lonesome over at romancejunkies. *sniffle* Please come chat with me.

 Kim

(sitting in a corner wondering why no one wants to play...) 

Sorry.  I'm hogging. 

Take that last example and think about conflict.  The characters aren't necessarily going to argue to get their own way.  The heroine, in this instance, will "clam up", the opposite of arguing.  The hero, we assume, will "nit-pick" at the heroine rather than boldly confront her, which will cause her to retreat.

The opposing force would be the strengths of the characters--which will draw them back together.  When the heroine realizes what she is doing, she can make an effort to listen and talk and not run away.  He could tell he what's really bothering him instead of picking at little things.  Voila!  Problem solved and happily ever after.  It's a whole yin/yang thing going on. 

Caron, I haven't really done much literary analysis since college.  This is fun.

I can't find you on romancejunkies.com.  Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.  Off to a Parent/Teacher Club meeting.  Sorry, again, for all the posts.

Caron - I actually have permanent metal hurricane shutters on my windows.  Not only for hurricanes but it also keeps the heat out and air conditioning in and can be adjusted to let light in or out depending on what one wants.  And I definitely have all the supplies I need.  But if IKE delivers a direct hit so many other things could happen.  And being stuck on a highway when a hurricane is coming is my idea of absolute terror.

Thanks Caron and everyone else.

I watched it, too, but I was less impressed. Dh liked it better than I did, and so maybe we'll keep watching, but I think it's basically because I am a paranormal reader/viewer more than a sci-fi one, and there's a huge difference, though this show does blend them a bit. But I relate more to the magic/psychic/vampire/ghost kinds of storylines than the science gone amok kinds of storylines.

Speaking of science gone amok, has anyone followed the story of the atom smasher in Switzerland and the whole black hole swallowing the earth controversy? LOL There's been a lot of tongue-in-cheek news reporting on it, but at a basic level, I get really annoyed with the arrogance of science, in the way that while it's very unlikely they will spawn a little black hole that would swallow the world (from what I hear on the news, anyway, I failed physics), why even try?Just so they can "know"? It really ticks me off on some level, especially when the amount of money they spent on this thing could probably have fed a small country in Africa...

Off my social soapbox...back to writing...

Sam

Fascinating discussion, and I'm miles behind.  It's parent night tonight and I'm trying to work on my book at school while I'm waiting for it to start and let me tell you...you just can't write romance in a junior high science room.

 Kim--I went to Romance Junkies and loved your blog.  Cool stuff.  I  like to know how other authors work.  You guys should check it out--even though it made me jealous that Kim's characters wrote a great scene and mine are clamming up.

Ellen--Oh, thank you for mentioning me in your Harlequin Moment.  I loved your blog, too.

Must go--hungry man wants to go eat before parent night. 

Hi to all!

Jeannie

Ack. I wanted to talk about writing and I got trapped at a.) work, b.) the doctor's office c.) in a family drama, and d.) helping with 6th grade homework.

What is a predicate anyway? Argh. 

Thanks to all the friends who visited me in my moment blog. What a neat experience that was.

I have to run and do PTA business now. If we're still talking characters tomorrow I might have time. So sorry to be a no-show for the Institute.

Take care, Ellen Too!!

Writer Ellen 

yes, I can see where that environment wouldn't be conducive to writing a romance novel. Hope that the parent night and the eventual writing go well.

Sorry that you got stuck in places you didn't want to be, Ellen. Let's keep the character flaw discussion going. So interesting! Predicates-it's the minutae!

Those of you in Ike's way, stay safe. I hate to see anyone have to go through that, but for the moment we here in Mississippi are breathing a cautious sigh of relief.

LindaC

I don't wanna be at Parent's Night (which starts in 15 minutes).    And I'm missing Project Runway--the only tv show I get to watch until my book is done.  Double bummer.  And I blew my diet (stress pizza)--triple bummer.  Oh well, back on the diet, writing wagon tomorrow.

Tasha--Laurie did an eharlequin Q&A  on character flaws that was awesome.  It was back in 2005, so it's probably long gone, but I learned so much.  She's quite the presenter.

Marcie--We're on the same schedule.  Are you at parent's night somewhere tonight? 

Everyone along the hurricane coasts--stay safe!

I'd love to stay longer, but must go...

Jeannie

When I go to submit my story to Supers, can I submit the entire novel? Or should I stick with the synopsis and the first three chapters? 

Thanks!

Hi,

I don't have time to comment on everything that came before. Sorry. But I didn't want to miss the character flaw conversation entirely. I thought you all had interesting points. It's cool to see how our perspectives and personalities affect how we approach these issues in our work.

The only point I have to add is that sometimes I think it's possible for a character flaw to open up an avenue for the other character to offer a gift. For example, Mason, in His Secret Past, worries too much about fitting in and following the "rules." This is causing him a lot of difficulty. Anna gives him an afternoon without rules. It's a gift for him and he knows it and loves her a little more because of it.

Or in that scene in Good Will Hunting when Robin Williams's therapist character finally breaks through to Will, who's been sabotaging his life because he feels unlovable...the therapist holds Will and won't let go, loving him unconditionally, until Will is able to hold him back.

I'm never sure I'm getting these craft concepty things right, but that's a thought I keep in mind about characters so there you go.

Have a great day, everyone.

Writer Ellen

I loved, loved, loved watching Gilmore Girls on dvd!!!  The writing was excellent.  The characters funny (and flawed.  Lord, were they flawed and that's why we love them!).  I loved how three generations in the family were named Loralei (the grandmother was a hoot!).  I loved the small town aspect and all the quirky personalities.  Oh, if I could write books like that, I would feel as if I'd really accomplished something. 

Roz, I'm really anxious to know how everything went.  Thinking of you and Denny.

I had to hunt for it this morning. What's up with that?

But, thankfully, it's not quite as silly as I remembered. Thanks to all who have visited and posted. If you want to check it out--I'm drawing a winner at some point--there's a link on my website blog, which includes a very nice review from Romance Junkies. Small world, Kim. 

Kim, sorry I missed your blog. Sounds interesting. I'm juggling a dozen flaming daggers today--OK, a bit of hyperbole. But it is my daughter's b-day and my son and his family are leaving for a 5-week trip. And it's 9-11, which was a tragic day for our family long before we had to share the sadness with the rest of the world. Okay, enough of that.  Ellen, come back and cheer me up. That PTA meeting has to be over by now.

Jeannie, hope your parent-teacher night went well. I have so much respect for those of you who work full-time in addition to writing. Strong, brave women.

Caron, you made me smile with your happy ending for Hamlet. And Romeo and Juliet, too?

Susan, the question on my blog is what do you say to those who diss romance? Your "weekend" novelist seems to fall under that catergory.  And I love your T-shirt slogan idea.

Sam, if they don't kill us all, are they going to sell black holes--or the opportunity to drop certain people in them? I can think of a few.

Natasha, I've read about enneagrams. The problem I have with anything like that is I don't KNOW my characters until they slowly reveal themselves to me. If I ASSUME they're a certain type (because that's what they project) I can miss clues to who they really are. This is where revisions get ugly. So, I've starting writing first, asking probing questions second.

Jodie, I'm glad you found the answer from Wanda's very own lips.

Holly, you are so dam* industrious. You make me sick. Rocks. Splitting wood. Now, building fences. All of that on top of writing fabulous books. If I didn't love you, I'd hate you. But who could possibly hate Holly? She's too nice.

Deb, who probably shouldn't have had that second cup of coffee this morning

Hey Ellen Too, you're the winner at my blog. Send me your snail mail addy and a request from my backlist.

Kim