Ps & Qs with The Grammar Guy

I do okay with the grammer side of things, it's the comma useage that I have trouble with. When to use when not to use what to use it before or after....it's all so confusing. I thought I had a handle on it but a wise woman told me that I needed a review...

 So here I am, ready to talk shop and learn how to tighten up my MS...bring it on! LOL

Liv <-- self professed comma addict...

  Hey Dee!  Thanks for doing this!  Your rules are concise and easy to follow.  I've copied them off and will use them!  I was wondering if I could ask something that seems more... inbetween on the comma's? Maybe its not, maybe it is covered by the above rules you gave us.   I'm hoping this is alrigh, I'll put two examples below but if we're not supposed to do it that way, just let me know!

I have a question on the commas in these two examples:

Aiden stepped back, relieved to hear the loud whinny of the mother as
the foal took its first few tentative breaths of air.

 ---------------------------------

One of the men slapped him on the back, congratulating him.

  Initially I do not want to put a comma in either of these sentences--I've been advised they are needed.  If I say it enough times... I think they are.  But are they really?  I think they read smoother without.  But maybe I'm weird... okay we already know the answer to that   but still...? 

These are the kinds of commas that I seem to have issues with.

 

Thanks for all your help Dee!

Cole 

Here's a sentence for ya:

Her brother, Fred, loves to work out at the gym.

So... do I need those commas to set off Fred, or not?

I always forget.

 

Glad they worked for y'all!

Nicole, yes, those commas go there. See rule #3--introductory word groups. It introduces the actual sentence, but you're combining it with action.  Jennifer--Yup, Ila's got you down, babe. If you can pull a section out and not damage the sentence, it needs commas on either side. Or, if you have an aside, like a sentence of it's own to interject, you can use an em-dash in the same fashion. :) Hugs! Dee

Comma useage in your two sentences are basically the same ...... if the parts of the sentence can be interchanged than a comma is needed ....

for example---

Aiden stepped back, relieved to hear the loud whinny of the mother as the foal took its first few tentative breaths of air.

Relieved to hear the loud whinny of the mother as the foal took its first few tentative breaths of air, Aiden stepped back.

and ......

One of the men slapped him on the back, congratulating him.

Congratulating him, one of the men slapped him on the back.

.... or so we were taught in business writing 101 

we were also taught in school that where you would pause in speach, that is where you would place a comma ....... but some people are short of breath and that rule goes out the window!  LOL 

Dee, this is a great discussion .... I'm sorry I missed it on the old site  .... we can all benefit from better grammar  ... and that is interesting about Publishers rules .... I had often wondered why some books seemed to not follow the grammar rules we learnt in school  

 

Thank you Katherine!  I hope this 'thread' never disappears... its a great EVERYDAY reference and soooo much easier to understand than the two books I currently have.  In other words, you make sense.  Thank you!

I don't know why I never saw this thread on the old forum...  glad that I found it here! 

Cole 

Thanks Dee and Ila! That rule makes sense. Thanks again for the info!

I think it looks right to capitalize endearments, like Honey, when used as a title. 'Can you get me a beer, Honey?' but my crit partners are always telling me to take out the caps.

When the word is not a title, 'You're a honey for getting me that beer,' I don't cap it.

Am I right to capitalize the endearments (and epithets 'Don't touch my beer, Jerk.')?

Great thread here.  Do we still have Grammar Central?  I haven't checked.

Now my topic.  I belong to a critique group.  A lot of them like to tell me my verb usage is passive when I know it isn't.

Passive - The book was read by the girl.

They say that this sentence is passive,  She was reading the book. 

Not as active as it could be, but it is not passive.

Am I right or wrong?

 Carolanne

Passive voice is when the doer of the action is not important or not known. (The ball was hit. Taxes will be raised.) That's not to say Passive voice doesn't have it's place. Like foods, nothing should be villified.  Passive voice works well when making announcements (The school is closed.), when you want to convey info without sounding aggressive (Your application was rejected.), you're writing in an impersonal, scientific manner (The mice were separated into two groups.) or you want to emphasize the thing you're talking about and not who did it (The big blue ribbon will be given to the winner). So, all that said, no, "She was reading the book." isn't passive because the sentence includes the doer. There's a tighter option to the sentence, but weak verbs and passive voices are different things.  Hope that helps, Dee

'She was reading the book.' is past progressive tense. It is used to emphasize the duration of an action. 'She was reading the book while he made dinner.' Or it can indicate an incomplete action. 'She was walking to the store when she got shot.' (She didn't get to the store.)

I think that there are times when the simultaneous action is not explicit. As in 'She was reading the book.' Without the 'while he made dinner.' So, if it sounds right to you, use it.

I find some CPs eliminate every instance of 'was' declaring it passive. And sometimes it ends up with stuff that just plain sounds wrong. 'Was' is not inherently bad.

Passive voice is when the actor is not the subject of the sentence.  'The book (subject) was read by her (actor).'  You want your characters to be active people in charge of their fates, not tossed around by fate. 

 On the other hand, you need passive when the actor is not important.  'He was murdered.' Puts the emphasis on the victim. 'Someone murdered him.' puts the emphasis on the murderer, but the start of a dectective novel is usually about the victim, not the unknown murderer.

I think you could make a gloriously slimey character using a lot of passive. Someone who never takes responsibility for his actions by using the passive voice. 'Mistakes were made.' Never 'I made a mistake.'

End of rant. I'm not a grammar guru, I'm a nitpicker.

SAO

I started to read your explanations of how to use commas and capitals and found them very clear. However, I hadn't gone far before my eyes began to cross. I will have to go very, very slowly. I suffer from the usual Dyslexic syndrome, commas and Capitals are like confetti, either they are dotted everywhere, or they don't turn up at all!

Janet

I've been looking around the site and I'm so glad that I found this topic. I completed a writing class about a month ago and the biggest complaint the instructor had about my writing was my overuse and misuse of comma's and exclamations points. I did try to reason with him that I graduated school in the dark ages so it's been a little while!LOL

I participate on a support forum for Lupus, and there is a lady there that was ending ALL of her sentences with an exclamation mark .... because I've been an avid reader most of my life, I automatically "read" the punctuation, and I found the excessive use of the exclamation mark very agitating to read   ....  I always read her comments as if she were in a panic or hysterical when she wrote them ...

 

it had gotten to the stage that I avoided reading her comments ..... and then I'd feel terrible because she deserved support just as much as other participants .... so I had to politely ask her to tone down her exclamation marks as it was giving me heart palpitations!  .... lol  .... I did ask her in a very nice way .... as soon as she toned down the useage, she was receiving more than double her past responses, and she thanked me    ....... still every once in awhile she gets carried away again, but we all tease her now

 

in private conversations, or small personal anedotes, I think being excited is fun!!   ..... and I DO love to use that exclamation mark to show just how great I'm feeling!  ....  I like happy faces too ......  :D

 

 

 

 

Nice to meet you, too! Looking forward to seeing your question.

 

Naomi

but it still looks wrong to me to put an extra s. What should we do, Naomi?

Chicago Manual of Style ..... hmmm, as I have lived all my life in Ontario, Canada, I wonder what "style" we were taught in school in the late 60's - early 70's .... and if this style is taught today

 

This is a very interesting topic, and I'd like to learn more .... yes, please ... I'd like to read the exceptions

 

BTW, Dee, I agree ... the apostrophe + s  in Boss's does look funny .... and my Grade Three teacher Mrs. Baumgartner would have scolded me royally if I'd written it that way    

 

 

 

..cause I'm still struggling to commit other rules to memory...I may have to make a cheat sheet...and paste it to my 'puter screen....Man! I wish I could just cheat off someone's paper...it'd be easier LOL

Liv

Hi, ladies,

Don't worry! There are only a few exceptions, and I know they won't be a problem for you guys.

Ready?

Here we go!

1. Nouns plural in form, singular in meaning: when a noun's singular and plural forms both end in s, use just the apostrophe.
So:
politics' true intent
economics' hidden intricacy
the United States' reputation
Strawberry Hills' new motto

 

2. Names that end in an eez: just use an apostrophe to form the possessive.
So:
Xerxes' tattoos
Euripides' tragedies

3. Proper nouns that end with a silent s: Use a single apostrophe for words you are sure that end with an unpronounced s—but only if you're sure!
So:
Descartes' theories
Francois' dreamy accent

Any questions or can you think of examples for the above exceptions? There are additional rules for the particularities of the possessive, so let me know if you want to get into those.

Hope that helps (and eases the pain a bit!).
Naomi

I think it's not needed in either case. Although, I'm very tempted to say yes to "Sarcastically, he added..." but definitely not to "...he added sarcastically."

Naomi, I think we need a ruling! LOL! Dee

Thanks Naomi    ......... those exceptions should be easy to remember       ......  as I'm not presently aspiring to author a book, I think I'll hang on to the Boss'  Mistress rule I was taught in school  just because it looks better (in my "house" anyway   ) ...... and I like being a rebel!  LOL 

 

Hey, I'm still reeling from Potatoe losing it's e.

As I understand it, changes occur as the living language discovers that certain pronounciations don't apply after a while. Words like "Chocolate" and "Sophomore" are in danger of losing their central "o"s. No one says choc-o-late. We say chock-lette. Soph-more. But that's been pending since I was in school...which was loooooooooooong ago and none of those central o's are going anywhere. Sigh. Dee

Hi, ladies,

OK, I know the subject heading hasn't been proven (yet), but I saw the Spice Girls in concert last night, and they were so fantastic, I'm positive they love commas as much as we do!

Cole, to address your question, you don't need to insert a comma after "Sarcastically" unless you want to insert a pause for the reader. Usually with single introductory words (as well as very short intro phrases), you don't need a comma except to prevent misreading.

So:

1. Before changing, the dancers hoisted Ginger Spice onto their shoulders. (Can you see how it would be confusing at first without the comma?)
2. On Sunday the Spice Girls lit up the stage in their costumes designed by Cavalli.

Katherine, those were some awesome suggestions regarding reordering of word order. It's cool that English is such a flexible language (sometimes) that we can shape our writing in so many different ways.

Commas are tricky, yet awesome, so I'm sure we'll definitely do more work on them soon. (Yo, I tell you what I want, what I really really want...more questions on commas!)

Viva Forever! Thanks, Dee et al. for addressing Cole's concern.

Naomi

Hi, ila!

Like the Spice Girls' history, change is inevitable.  

English, and for that matter all language, is constantly evolving, and with the amount of information and opinions out there it's hard to know what is still in use and what isn't.

For example, writing is slowly shifting to "down" style, which is a more minimal use of capitalization without taking away from a noun's importance. Though this is related to writing, it also addresses graphic trends, as you see more lowercased lettering in signs, images etc. probably because fewer capitals makes for a less jagged appearance. But then you'll have organizations that capitalize the heck out of everything!

 

We actually had a situation here at work where one of our online marketing managers asked if we were changing our house style spelling of "e-mail" to "email" since the latter was being endorsed by a national marketing association. In the end we stuck to our house style since "email" hasn't been officially recognized by Merriam-Webster's, our in-house dictionary of choice.

 

So in general, I think it's good to be an old-school stickler—dictionaries and style guides like Chicago are quite up-to-date; if in doubt, you can rely on their rulings and exceptions. It's just like being a good copy editor: pick a style or rules to abide by, but be flexible enough to incorporate the changing nature of language.

 

Dee, that's a really interesting fact about the central o's—I had no idea! Aesthetically, I would hate to see words lose their central o's—it'd be like losing mini-anchors in words.

Naomi

 

I don't think it's right to change the rules to "simplify" or "lower" it.  Lowering the standards has been a popular trend---has it gotten us any better educated?  Hmm? 

Granted English has a lot of exceptions--but so does Arabic, there are a ton of verbs that are irregular, and NO pattern whatsoever from one irregular to the next.  Their words are formed on roots.  you think you look up "tadros" under the "t"---WRONG---you look under the "D".....but they're not changing everything to make it easier.  The French protect their language as well. 

Let's keep good English and encourage people to learn what is proper rather than assuming they are stupid and accepting bad English as good.