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Writing Historical Dialogue and Narrative
by Hope Chastain on November 4th, 2009, 10:42am
How do YOU balance modern reading sensibilities with a feel for the time? This is the place to share your tips and tricks of the trade, recommend nonfiction books and/or well-written novels, and suggest ways to "historicize" dialogue and narrative. Dictionary-like definitions of words no longer in modern usage are welcome (as long as you don't quote directly from a dictionary). So grab a quill pen, dip it in the standish, wipe off the excess ink, and join us as we time travel together!
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We've all read them: historical novels that have such promise. We get comfortably into the story when *CLUNK* out of the blue, we're hit with an anachronism, something no character in that time frame would say, or a reference to something that hasn't been invented yet. We may finish reading the novel anyway, if the story is good enough, but we feel let down, as though the author hasn't done his or her homework. On the other hand, there are writers who go so far in the other direction, we feel as though we're reading a class assignment instead of for pleasure.
Here, we can discuss how to avoid all that, and not only make our books a pleasure to read, but establish ourselves as an "auto-buy."
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Suggestion for header titles:
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Historical time frame, e.g. 1870s Old West, Clothing of the Middle Ages, etc.
book title suggestion, e.g. the Everyday Life series
reply to a previous post
anything else that seems to fit the parameters of this discussion
Remember, these are just suggestions, not rules. The only rule to remember here is the PG-13 rating of eharlequin.com. So sit back, relax, and let's talk dialogue!
"Never say you will pray about a thing; pray about it." Oswald Chambers.
Pass the Plot - 09-09
NaNo: 2577/50000
1870s dialog
Oooh, I'm so excited to see this thread started! Am I really the first to comment?? Wow.
Hope, thanks for starting this. I need help with historical dialog. My Western is going really well, but I just keep sounding modern, especially in dialog. That being said, I've been known to make people laugh because of the way I really speak, lol. My mother taught me to read using the original McGuffey Readers. So, sometimes I talk a little...funny.
Here's my problem; People say I should be writing historical because of the way I speak, but when I read what I write, there is a whole lot of modern remaining it those sentences. I don't know how to weed out and replace. Does that make any sense?
WIP Secrets of a Preacher (was Audience of One)
NaNoNovel: 29843/75000 words
Goal for Nov. 50K
You're welcome, TabithAnne!
I was thinking of your request on one of the other boards, and decided you probably weren't the only one who needed this discussion thread. (I need it myself!)
You make perfect sense. It's easy to sound one way when speaking, and then write in a totally different manner. Without sitting down and reading dictionaries that were published in the time period, sometimes it's difficult to weed things out. Basically, what you'll want to do is make it feel real. I love the McGuffey Readers. (We met one of his descendants once; a really nice guy! Which is something I would NEVER say in a historical, unless it was set in the 1920s in Chicago or New York...
)
I think (and this is just one prepublished writer's opinion) it's all right to use contractions (isn't, doesn't, wouldn't, etc.) in dialogue sentences, because to the modern ear, it just sounds funny to say "is not," "does not," etc., except for emphasis. [In narrative, you might want to go the more formal route.] I also think people probably used contractions more than made it into print. The style of writing that was acceptable for publication back then was formal (except possibly in the Dime Novels; I'm not sure, as I've never found one to read). The place to watch it is in the slang, and in terms like "teenager." I should probably put this into a separate post, and was thinking of doing just that, but since I'm already on the subject, I'll just mention it here. "Teenager" as a term for those between thirteen and nineteen did not come into common usage until the 1950s, and yet I've seen it used repeatedly in historical novels. They would just use the term "youth," generally. [NOTE: if anyone has any further information on the terms Teenager, preteen, etc., PLEASE post them here! Thank you!]
One thing you can do is read your work aloud. If a sentence doesn't sound right, you can change it. (Probably this would be better left until the editing phase, since you're working on NaNo and only have this month to finish in order to win.) Here's an encouraging thought: the more you read things that were written in the time period and the more you write, the easier it will be to slide into the right dialogue mode from the beginning of a novel, rather than editing it in later. [For writers of the earlier periods, this will be more difficult, if not impossible due to different languages, but you can still write it!]
"Never say you will pray about a thing; pray about it." Oswald Chambers.
Pass the Plot - 09-09
NaNo: 2577/50000
King James Version of the Bible
Is and excellent reference for how mediveal language would sound.
Date with Destiny participant summer 2009
Pass the Plot participant Sept 09
Thank you both! I really
Thank you both! I really need a critique partner specifically for historical writing--hint, hint, anyone?
DJ, I think the bible is actually where I developed my turn of phrase that sounds 'older'. I have to *try* not to sound that way when writing on places like facebook, and here. I think it will help me in historical, though. However, it's been more then 20 years since I seriously read Anglo-Saxon. Some of it just grabbed on, I guess.
Another thing; should I still write formally if it's somewhat humorous? My novel, although not a humorous book altogether, has some humorous scenes. Should those still be written in longer, more formal language?
WIP Secrets of a Preacher (was Audience of One)
NaNoNovel: 29843/75000 words
Goal for Nov. 50K
KJV
would actually be Tudor/Renaissance English---Medieval English was spoken by peasents, was Anglo-Saxon sounding and so if you want to know what that sounded like---grab a copy of Canterbury Tales.....The aristocracy would speak Norman French and Latin---if you can find a Catholic church that has the Latin Mass, it is awsome! You have a complete feel for the medieval church service.
One thing that can be hard to get used to is changed usage words---in the middle ages and up to more recent times the word bastard was exactly what it means---an illigitimate child, it's even in the KJV Bible. It was not a swear word, gay meant happy, just to give a couple of examples.
I find it relatively easy to write historical because I use a lot of what would be considered formal speech in my everyday language. English has been butchered by modern society and I try to avoid murdering it further. I have read novels where it is well done---there was a formal way of speaking then. However, I don't think everyone was so formal all the time. For example, in French I would use "vous" rather than "tu" to say please unless I was speaking to family or friend and I tend to think that is how it was done then. There was the formal discourse for public, for writing, but when you were sitting around the fire with your family, you probably relaxed a bit---maybe not a lot, but some.
www.twoshoesgoodies.com
www.edenslane.blogspot.com
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Grammar and pacing
Great thread. Some very interesting points already.
Another thing that I think a lot of writers don't take into account is the grammatical and pacing differences that can set the scene before you've written one word of carefully researched setting.
Take this example, which is one of my all time favourite openings:
CAN any thing, my good Sir, be more painful to a friendly mind, than a necessity of communicating disagreeable intelligence? Indeed it is sometimes difficult to determine, whether the relator or the receiver of evil tidings is most to be pitied. It's from France Burney's 1778 novel, Evelina. There's so much to being communicated in these two lines, about the writer in this case - slightly florid, formal, the precise and expansive vocabulary, with an elegant and almost rhythmic pacing. Look at the way many of the phrases are inverted from 'modern' expectation, at the use of commas to break the phrasing, giving it that almost lilting feel. It tells us immediately what time period we're in, what kind of person is speaking and what sort of a novel we're in. You can see that same sort of thing in Austen (same period), when she writes "It is a truth universally acknowledged (comma) that a single man in possession of a large fortune must be in want of a wife. Word choice and rhythm play a lot into making a novel sound period IMHO and the only way to absorb that is to read, read, read. Google books is great for that: there are more books from every time period available online than ever before.Seafaring Lore and Legend (1800s)
GREAT thread idea. Thanks so much for this.
I'm currently struggling with the language and vocabulary of mariners during the war of 1812. I know, I know. Tall order. I've found a couple books here and there.
It's also a struggle to research because, technically, it's the Regency Era (tons of information!) but its' occuring in the US. Any tips or strategies you might have would be much appreciated.
How would a woman dress in America during the regency period? This is the height of the Thomas Jefferson/Louisiana Purchase...General Andrew Jackson...
Thanks for any tips out there. And thanks for this thread. Consider me a #1 fan!
Thanks for this thread..
Thanks for this thread.. This will really be great.
1812/Regency America
Well, I'm more of a pre-1350 kind of history major, but did take a couple of brief forays into that era in college. Honestly, newspapers are great for info, if you have a library nearby it should at the very least have local papers from that era or if you have access to a university library----papers will have absolutely everything in them. Jackson is everywhere----the only caveat is to make sure the author has used primary sources, but there are tons of books on Jacksonian America & Thomas Jefferson.
As for costume, women were dressing the same here as in Europe, basically.....go to the art work, esp if you can't find a decent costume book. Look up a period reenactment group, they'll have sources and pics. Eventhough I've done the research and have pics of Anglo-Saxon clothing, the pictures I have stuck to my wall by my desk are from my Regia Anglorum photos---where else can I have a picture of a properly clad Saxon warrior kissing his loved ones farewell as he goes to war? A Saxon woman spinning wool? A longhall full of people at a feast? Art work and reenactment groups!
This is a fairly good book, he does use good sources---Ellis, Joseph J. Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation. New York: Vintage Books, 2000. That's the only non-military book that I have listed for that era ---like I said, I'm much more into pre-1350.
It is easy, esp for me as a history major, to get stuck in "too much research" I have to remember I am not writing my thesis, I'm writing a story, so what I do is write the first draft based on what I know already --- just get the story down with the information on the era I already have and then when I go about typing the 2nd draft, I gather my questions, "Did Anglo-Saxons use fox fur?" "How long does it take to get by horse from Dover to London?" And those are the question I take to the library with me.
www.twoshoesgoodies.com
www.edenslane.blogspot.com
www.corgiaid.org
there is now a costume
there is now a costume thread :)
www.twoshoesgoodies.com
www.edenslane.blogspot.com
www.corgiaid.org
Yay, Ila!
I was going to start one, but it's been a busy day. Where is it? Please put a link through here, so we can find it! Thanks!
"Never say you will pray about a thing; pray about it." Oswald Chambers.
Pass the Plot - 09-09
NaNo: 2577/50000
Link? eekkk....It should
Link? eekkk....It should be in this same place...write stuff......how do I link? I'm stone tablet and chisel girl, remember :)
http://community.eharlequin.com/forums/write-stuff/historic-costume
www.twoshoesgoodies.com
www.edenslane.blogspot.com
www.corgiaid.org
Thanks, history queens!!
Thanks, history queens!! I love history, but really not good at it. Maybe I got my periods and vocab wrong. I've read McGuffey, Pilgrims Progress, and most of C.S Lewis that I *assumed* were all from around the same time period of speach.
And I assumed they were all called Anglo-Saxon. Am I totally busted?
I did learn to read out of old text, but I could be very wrong about the time periods. Sorry.
WIP Secrets of a Preacher (was Audience of One)
NaNoNovel: 29843/75000 words
Goal for Nov. 50K
English Language
Let's see if I can do this off the top of my head w/o Kim or Mrs. Newberry coming along and screeching over any thing I forgot :(
Anglo-Saxon is the 'ancient' English---the language spoken by the Saxon/Germanic people that arrived in the 5th and 6th centuries although they were there with the Romans earliers, continued to be spoken by the peasants after the Norman invasion in 1066.....words like:
Waepnu ahebbeth
Forth gath
Ic thancie thu
Wes-harl
This evolved a bit to come into Middle English like what you find in the Canterbury Tales:
Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soute
The droughte of March hath perced to the roote
and bathed every veyne in swich licour
Which if spoken, sounds easier than it does just read, I think :)
Then it grew into the Elizabethean era English which forms into the familiar KJV English of the 17th century. They still have quite a bit more formality and I think a much deeper use of words than we use now, but English changed from a very Germanic sounding language into what we have now. It was heavily influenced by French when the Normans invaded in 1066---but it was still the language of the people from that point on to many years later.
did that answer anything or was it a really long babbling of history :)
And I LOVE reading the old texts, it is very helpful in giving a setting to the period.
5 , 10 1www.twoshoesgoodies.com
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www.corgiaid.org
That's actually VERY
That's actually VERY informative and interesting! Thanks. I think what I was reading was Middle English, then. I have a copy of Canterbary Tales and haven't even cracked it, lol. Now, I'm going straight there.
My novel is set 1870s. Which books might I have on my shelf that would be of help? Perhaps I should break out the McGuffey readers. Or even Little House on the Prairie. Hmmm.
WIP Secrets of a Preacher (was Audience of One)
NaNoNovel: 29843/75000 words
Goal for Nov. 50K
The Virginian
by Owen Wister, is pretty good for western dialogue & flair. Also anything by Zane Grey. A caveat about earlier literature: it was a time of bigotry, and that is quite plain in the writing. However, it does give you the flavor. Grey was writing not long after the end of the wild west, although some of his books are set in the early 20th century. (I remember one where the lovely young flapper went to Oak Creek Canyon in Arizona...it was sweet & romantic.) There are some other western writers who were writing during the time. Oh, see if you can find Roughing It, by Mark Twain. He was in Virginia City, Nevada, in the 1870s. (One quote I remember was along the lines of "The horse had many fine points, on one of which I hung my hat.") O. Henry wrote a bunch of western stories that were collected into a book, as well.
If I weren't crosseyed with fatigue, I'd comment further on the English. Excellent post, Ila! The sort of thing that will help many of us! I have a copy of Canterbury Tales around here somewhere, but I'm not sure but what it's an updated version...I'll have to check.
PS The Virginian is also a romance....
"Never say you will pray about a thing; pray about it." Oswald Chambers.
Pass the Plot - 09-09
NaNo: 2577/50000
Thank you gals! I love
Thank you gals! I love this forum thread.
WIP Secrets of a Preacher (was Audience of One)
NaNoNovel: 29843/75000 words
Goal for Nov. 50K
Nineteen century
I love the "Little House" books! I still have the set my parents gave me when I was little :)
Ok---I actually remembered, in this discussion of formality vs. informal modern----I did a paper as an undergrad that involved reading POW diaries from the War Between the States---there was a HUGE difference between the language used by men who were writing with a preface of "I want to pass this on" and the men who were just writing so they didn't go nuts......The ones who wanted to pass it on were formal, kind of vague in places -- I suppose not to upset any lady readers -- and while descriptive, it was a more distant description. The other men quoted their captors, even if it meant swearing, they described feelings and sensations, it was very up close and personal.
So, what books to read from that era....diaries! Libby Custer's is fascinating, that would be frontier life written by a woman, I'm trying to think....I do not have my stuff with me......ummm.....this is out of my era, but I have books in storage on this period...why can't I think of the titles and authors??? grrrrr......I can't even think of American lit......newspapers, diaries....there is one guy, he wrote fiction, not the fancy stuff that's in textbooks, but stories the "normal" people would have read----I cannot remember his name. He was JEB Stuart's brother-in-law, I think the last name was Cooke.....that would be period. .....
Thank you Hope! I LOVE Canterbury Tales :) They really are a hoot! In fact, I just read a historical/time travel romance where the heroine is reading them (she's from now) out loud to the hero (he's 14th century) and he's cracking up :)
www.twoshoesgoodies.com
www.edenslane.blogspot.com
www.corgiaid.org
http://oldfashionededucation
//oldfashionededucation [dot] com/
//digital.library.pitt [dot] edu/n/nietz/
The above weblinks might be of use to someone. The top one is for homeschoolers, but it has a gazillon website links to old texts, histories, etc from way back when. It is fabulous! I believe she has a link to Gutenburg from there, too.
The second is a web database for 19th century school books, most of which can be downloaded and read straight from your computer for free. Also fabulous! You can search it by subject or whatever.
WIP Secrets of a Preacher (was Audience of One)
NaNoNovel: 29843/75000 words
Goal for Nov. 50K
old texts
I LOVE comparing those, I actually did a history course where we read sections of history textbooks from different eras. It's so interesting......
Thanks for the links :)
www.twoshoesgoodies.com
www.edenslane.blogspot.com
www.corgiaid.org
I ran across one a while
I ran across one a while ago, that was manners for kids, I think it was called, A Goop and How not to Be One, or some such silly title. Anyway, it had quite a large amount of contractions, although some a little different (like mustn't). It was from late 19th cen.
WIP Secrets of a Preacher (was Audience of One)
NaNoNovel: 29843/75000 words
Goal for Nov. 50K
Oh, yes...
I love those old contractions! Mustn't, oughtn't, shan't, etc. I miss them in modern literature. Thanks for the lovely links!
"Never say you will pray about a thing; pray about it." Oswald Chambers.
Pass the Plot - 09-09
NaNo: 2577/50000
Regencies
For anyone writing 18th C or Regencies, I would recommend reading a bunch of Georgette Heyer's romances. She managed to convey the formality of Jane Austen's times while writing for a mid-20th C audience. Now we're in the 21st C, so most readers will be fine with something even less formal than Heyer. Definitely use contractions! They've been around fovever, and I'm sure people back then were a lot less formal in speech than in writing -- just like nowadays.
LOL about commas. I've been reading The Mysteries of Udolpho (pub'd in the 1790s). It's a great story (although VERY slow by modern standards), but the copy-editor in me keeps getting distracted by all the commas -- way more than we would use now.
Barbara Monajem
Notorious Eliza, HH Undone! January 2010
www.barbaramonajem.com
LOL Barbara...
Yes, MANY commas. And, in the notes and letters, Many Capitals for Emphasis!
I love Heyer. I was delighted to discover that Harlequin is reprinting her work. (Although distressed at finding they'd "corrected" a young boy's tendency to Malapropisms in one, replacing a stuttered "It's ob- ob- It's obligary" with "it's obligatory.") I think Heyer singlehandedly managed to create the vast market for Regencies in the '70s and '80s. While her author-omniscient style is considered head-hopping these days, she's still one of the best models for Regencies & Georgians, because she did her homework. Her attention to detail, not only in fashion, morals, customs, but the wars being fought on the Continent and elsewhere, make her an excellent source for inspration.
"Never say you will pray about a thing; pray about it." Oswald Chambers.
Pass the Plot - 09-09
NaNo: 2577/50000
No matter how tempting to
No matter how tempting to include weblinks we need to check with the hostys about that first. It is better to send people in the direction with a name. Yes more work for us, but I think we are not supposed to link to outside sites. There is a Help! forum that Katherine checks in on and offers advice and, well, help.
Nancy
January 2009 Member of the Month
Participant in Date with Destiny 2009
Participant in Pass the Plot Spring 2009
The title...
...of the web page usually is a good thing to enter in the search engine.
"Never say you will pray about a thing; pray about it." Oswald Chambers.
Pass the Plot - 09-09
NaNo: 2577/50000
So sorry. I didn't know. How
So sorry. I didn't know. How do I change it?
WIP Secrets of a Preacher (was Audience of One)
NaNoNovel: 29843/75000 words
Goal for Nov. 50K
If you want to remove the links...
...just click on the Edit button under your post. Go in, remove the http:// and that will do it. (Unless there's a www. in there, in which case, remove that, too.) That will still give the address, which we can highlight, copy & paste into the browser address window, and get there from there. I think the links would probably be all right, but you can ask Dream, Dee, or any of the other hosties. Examples:
http://community.eharlequin.com
community.eharlequin.com
Notice the first one is highlighted in color, and the second isn't.
"Never say you will pray about a thing; pray about it." Oswald Chambers.
Pass the Plot - 09-09
NaNo: 2577/50000
Hmmm
Interesting. It didn't work, because the links still do. I think you'll need to highlight the text, which will bring up the two link buttons in the menu at the bottom of this box, and then you can click on the broken link one. That should do it. (...although I think it's still all right to put links for research purposes if they don't take you to another publisher's website...)
Speaking of links, The Costumer's Manifesto has a wonderful bunch of links and patterns for costumes of many eras. I don't remember the URL, so I can't put even a semi-link. It's in Germany, but she has the site in English and other languages as well. Doing a search for the name should bring you to it.
"Never say you will pray about a thing; pray about it." Oswald Chambers.
Pass the Plot - 09-09
NaNo: 2577/50000
First Off...
Thanks for the linking reminders to everyone and asking to check with me. I'm afraid I was WAY over hours since..er, well, last Tuesday, so I had to do urgent stuff only until today.
To answer, yes, you may link to research sites openly. If they are a bookstore or another publisher, please don't. That's the short of it. I'll include the linking rules here, for definitiveness.
Hugs,
Dee
Dee Tenorio
"The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place, but also to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment."
English Through the Ages by
English Through the Ages by William Brohaugh will tell you what year certain words were in use. For example, the contractions wasn't and can't were commonly used by 1730 and other contractions, such as I've, mustn't, she'd, and we've were in use by 1745. It has a wide variety of words and their intro dates. Also, some words have changed meaning over time and it shows that change. For example, gay meaning "merry" came into use by 1325, meant "light" by 1800 and "homosexual" by 1915. The book is published by Writer's Digest Books and can be ordered through their Web site. Your local library may even have a copy.
Maurine
Thanks, Dee!
Links to research sites are okay, others verboten. Thanks also for posting the Rules Reminder. We're just thankful you aren't kicking us out of the Write Stuff Forum!
"Never say you will pray about a thing; pray about it." Oswald Chambers.
Pass the Plot - 09-09
NaNo: 2577/50000
LOL!
I'm cranky, not a nazi! :) Hee hee. Nah, I wouldn't throw you out. These were good additions to the board. I just like a little warning so I don't get too far behind. :)
Dee
Dee Tenorio
"The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place, but also to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment."
LOL Dee
Dream's original request to the programmers was to give us a way to make new threads in the Steeple Hill forum, but the only way they could make it work was to give us the option to put things anywhere. I hadn't realized at the time about that. I'm so glad you like the topics!
"Never say you will pray about a thing; pray about it." Oswald Chambers.
Pass the Plot - 09-09
NaNo: 2577/50000