Writing Techniques

Is there a preferred chapter length  that is standard?  Should a Blaze have 16 chapters, and a SuperRomance 22?  Is there a recommended minimum and maximum pages or word count?

 I write in Chapters as I go.  Is that a good thing? Thanks!

I like the size, and will try that.  I was reading a book over the weekend and the chapter was 31 pages long.  It was too long! 

For the most part, I think I'd fall in around the 20 page chapter area, but I just have been working on a WIP where I have some chapters that are 10 pages or fewer, though there are a couple long chapters in there as well, one that's something like 23 pages. I don't know if that matters... we'll see. I did what was right for the scenes, and didn't worry if they all balanced out...

Sam 

I find it a good practice to end a chapter on a  factor...even if it's a sweet romance there should be something that gets them to turn the page and not stick their bookmark in and go to bed.

In the draft of my first book, Virtually Perfect, I had very few revisions, but one was that I ended most chapters with them going to sleep, LOL. I think it was because I was writing at night, and probably finished chapters when I was tired and heading to bed...

Ever since then, I always catch myself if I do that, even once, but it's okay now and then. I don't think you can end every chapter on a big wow, that would be weird for pacing, but you can end them at more or less interesting moments, or at POV breaks, and mid-scene...

Sam

a little simpler than we're thinking.

I mean, wow factors just mean the reader wants to keep reading, right? Or are we looking for those "One HUNDRED THOUSAND dollars!" moments of Dr. Evil's? :)

Dee

Just like any other writing tool to keep the reader to keep reading can be overused. I say the main thing is to keep the story moving and you'll naturally start ending them where they need to be. As Dee said the stakes need to be raised after each chapter. 

Most times having the reader want the charater to have their HEA will make them keep reading. Things don't need to be dire (think soap opera endings), but it needs to feel like the character's HEA is in jeopardy.

I have no idea since I am unpubbed, which is one reason why I asked how many ms pages should a chapter be.  I love the idea of 20 for later print, 14 for smaller.

Years ago, all of the Romance books for a while were 192 pages, exactly.  The type in the books at times were larger or smaller, but each book had the same number of pages.  I used to wonder if that was because of the printing process.

 Also, I obsessed so, I noticed that Betty Neels had a hero once named Mr. Von De Empse (or something close to that) and I kept thinking, wow, 4 words used every time.  That would help with word count! 

Okay, so I do obsess and analyze a tad much! LOL!

Well I'm not sure if this a WOW moment, but I've ended chapters with characters merely worried about whether or not they're doing the right thing.  Something like is this relationship really worth all the hearttache, will he/she ever get over a past mistake, etc. 

That's my two cents anyway.

 Sandy

From Austin Powers movies. The camera scopes in suddenly when he says "One HUNDRED THOUSAND dollars!" and you hear the dun-dun-dun-duuuuuuuuuuuuuun! of the music. I think a lot of folks think they need to end ever scene or chapter like that. I'm a fan of ending a chapter on the end of a person's POV, but also either with the WOW (dun-dun-dun-duuuuuuuuun!) or the more subtler, "Am I worried or is that just gas?" thought/question.

:)

Dee

Betty -- Word, at least, doesn't count headers and page numbers as part of the word count.  Can't speak for any other WP programs, but it would seem very strange to me that they would, since headers and page numbers aren't technically part of the documents.

Chapter headings, OTOH, are counted, since they're in the body of the doc. :)

Karen, who still can't get used to not having to double space at the end of the paras here!

I'm love and hate with AP movies. Some parts are funny, some are just painful. My fave line has to be, "Allow myself to introduce...myself."--It's so the kind of thing I would do, lol.

Dee

(who can't use emoticons...how sad is that?)

So I can't offer any insight there. I think if you want to watch something that offers some insight on how to create chapter ending hooks one after another, 24 is a good show -- I just started watching it, and I'm pretty amazed at the pacing, though I will say, by about 10 hours in, it's a little much -- probably why I am not a huge fan of books that have many extremely short chapters (like the DaVinci Code). A ten page chapter is short to me -- the occasional 3 page chapter is allowable, but when you have a new chapter every 3-4 pages, or even one page chapters, it gets on my nerves as a reader...

Sam

Sam, I think that pet peeve can go for scene breaks also. I recently tried to read a John Sandford(I've loved his books and hadn't read one in a while) and after about every 6 paragraphs there was a scene break. I'm not sure what motivated his reasons, but I think the book would have been better off if he didn't do it so often. He wasn't changing POV, or location so I just found it irritating.

Since I am not published, I am probably not the best person to post a comment.  However, I do want to say that once I was told in an R that there was not enough romance in my ms.  I had put so much of the scene, plot and other things in the synopsis and I didn't mention much of the romance.  The R said "not enough romance".  So my advise is to focus on the relationship developing between the characters and not worry about getting every scene included. The general plot should be fine.

Good Luck!  I received an R that had some suggestions to improve the ms and one of the suggestions was how the ms was written, but obviously I did not convey that in the synopsis.  Only mention to Hero and Heroine by name and hit all of the important points in the developing relationship.

Happy writing!

The story is about how these *two people* overcome whatever *obstacles* are standing in the way of their HEA.  That *is* the plot of a romance, in a nutshell. 

So in a romance synopsis, you want to emphasize only those plot points that showcase the major turning points in the romance.  Who are these people (a bit of backstory to show their motivations)?  What do they want (their goals)?  Why does this put them in conflict with each other (and how do the First Kiss or lovescenes punch up that conflict?)  How do they work that out? 

I find it's easier to write a really short blurb that *only* hits on the major ideas and build from there, than to write a longer synopsis and try to cut.  Think of it as only having a minute to tell the story -- including the ending-- to somebody!

I know I read one Superromance and a couple of Spice that are written in first person. I also see when folks write in 3rd person. What is is called when you have a spokes person, like the mysteries that are written by a cat, who tells the story? And what is the difference between 3rd person and 3rd person omnipresent?  I was just curious, and thought I should find out. Thanks!

Third person limited -- sometimes called "deep" third -- is when the narrative is told strictly from one character's POV (within the scene), without authorial interference. Handled correctly, there's virtually no difference between first person and third limited, since you could in theory change the "he" or "she" to "I" and still leave the bulk of the prose intact. In fact, I often suggest to new writers who are having trouble with headhopping that they write the scene in first person, then switch it to third, which forces them to stick with one viewpoint for the duration.

Third omnisicient is the author telling the story, not the character, with frequent asides (from the storyteller's perspective) and *telling* the reader what everyone's thinking. You will rarely, if ever, see true omniscient in romance, especially category.

And that's different from character-as-narrator, which is still third. In that case, the character can observe and comment on what's going on, but is not privy to everyone's thoughts, unless expressed in his or her presence. That probably covers your cat books -- unless the cat's telling the story in first person? Whether the narrator's human or not doesn't matter.

Hi everyone!  I was playing around, trying to see what all was on this website and thought your discussion looked interesting.  I'll add my two cents, although I'm pretty much repeating what others have said.

Betty, a lot of writers recommend plotting by scenes.  It's a good way to make sure your scenes are strong.  I heard Lisa Gardner (NY Times thriller author) say that in a workshop once.  And if it works for her...

For what it's worth, I aim for 16-18 pages per chapter.  I only plan it this way so I can keep track of my word count.  Otherwise, I don't think it particularly matters.  If a chapter is extremely short, it calls attention to itself.  If it's too long, it drags.  So anything between the two extremes is fine.

Synopsis: This is one of my pet peeves.  I agree that the romance synopsis should focus on the romance and internal journeys.  Only put in as much external plot as you need so that it makes sense.  I can't begin to count how many synopses I've seen in contests where the author focuses on the external plot, then says at the end "They fell in love."  My answer is always, WHY?  Unless you specifically show me why the hero or heroine cares, respects, and admires the other person, I don't believe it.  (And lust does not qualify as a reason.)

Anyhow, that's my rant of the day.  Back to writing my own dreaded synopsis.

I hope some day to be writing good enough to have one. Until then, I guess I'll just watch with avid interst.  I checked out the blog.  Great info. 

Happy writing!  mj

Does anyone else have the problem that the forum comes up with the first post and not the first unread post? How can I fix it? As the number of posts increases, the paging down grows tedious.

SAO

I'm new to this online forum experience, so apologies in advance if I fail to follow any prescribed etiquette with which I'm not familiar.

That said, my question:

Can a Harlequin Presents story cover the span of a year?  Perhaps my question is, has it been done?

My original vision for the story I'm working on has it covering a full year - with some of the time that elapses being a period when the main characters are apart (so perhaps chapter two ends when they part in February, when their romance has not quite ignited, but the promise is there, and chapter three begins just as they're about to meet again in March), some of the time that elapses is time that they've been together but which hasn't been included in the story (in chapter four it's now April and they're in the midst of their supposed fling and in chapter five it's three months later and they're about to go away on a holiday) ... so, you get the gist I think. 

I'm attached to my story beginning and ending on the same holiday, but I don't recall having read a Harlequin Presents that spans such a length of time and I'm wondering if there's a rule against it ... or if, in the ignorance of my apprenticeship I'm oblvious to how impossible this scenario is for a catagory romance.

Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated. 

Kate -   Thanks for such a prompt and helpful reply.   

To your surprise that I’ve not, to my memory, read a Harlequin Presents that spans any great length of time, I will confess that it’s been a long while since I’ve read them with the avid dedication I did in the mid ‘70’s.  After a prolonged hiatus from the romance genre (as a reader … I’m just now testing the waters of the writer’s life), when I returned I first explored the new fish in the sea (Blaze, Superromance and Spice [Ooo la la]).   

As I began writing I thought I was doing so for Blaze.  I now have two stories completed (the first wracked with weaknesses which I hope to fix one day; the second ending up at a word count of over 100K which I’ve been unsuccessful at wheedling down to fit a category’s specifications) and am working on my third.  But what’s becoming more and more apparent is that my characters are primarily informed by the influences of my younger days.  It seems that Harlequin Presents and their alpha male imprinted me for life! 

Last year I purchased several to check out the current Presents climate and determine if my style and characters would make a good fit.  I believe they do.   Unfortunately (or not) at this stage in my life I’m  (a)   living hand to mouth, (b)   spending every second of free time writing, and (c)  limiting my exposure to other works by romance writers in the hope that I keep my voice as uniquely my own as possible

So, while I haven’t had the opportunity to read the books you mentioned, I’m very glad to know they exist.  I’m coming to learn that sometimes stories take on a life of their own during the writing process, but it’s good to know that I’m not embarking upon a convention that would lead to certain disappointment. 

Thanks again for your response … and for your thoughtfulness in posting it on both threads (correct terminology??) where I presented the question.  I’m so pleased to have discovered this resource and look forward to availing myself of it again. 

MVU (Melissa)

Hi Shanna and welcome to the boards.  I go by the name of BettyNeelswantabe because she is my favorite author and I would love to someday win the Betty Neels Rose Bowl. 

There is another sight impaired author who hangs out on the Blaze thread and also someone with lots of health issues that uses a voice system and is targeting Spice.  You might want to visit those threads for more info.

Good luck with your writing and finding the right home for your writing voice.  If I were you, I would definitely try NaNoWriMo here on e-Harlequin.  IT forces you to write a ms in 30 days.  The great thing about it is you have everything fresh in your mind, and you remember it because you are writing so much.  I used to write very rigid to my outline. After the first year of NaMo, I started receiving good rejections with comments.  I learned to have a picture in my mind of my characters and to know them, but to trust them if they take the story in a different direction than planned.

I say write a 1 page synopsis with the bones of the story, and then start writing your ms.  You can have the computer read the synopsis to you before you write every day, and it will help you with the organization.

The boards are full of creative folks who will have better ideas than me.  I can't wait to read them. Hugs!

I am relatively new to the EHarlequin boards, but i decided to have a look around.  Although i did not post a specific question, i just wanted to thank all the respondents in the thread.  You all have provide some vauable info and insight.  As an aspiring author working on my first manuscript, i must say that the entire process is a bit trying

Thanks again.