Warning: Minor ranting ahead (ETA: I feel compelled to add, this is not about a harlequin author.)
First of all, does anyone speak another language? Or understand one? Does it bother you when a book is set in whichever country that may be, and the dialogue, the vocabulary is simply all wrong? Does that happen?
Before I start, I was a little taken aback when I saw blog posts had the exact same look as book reviews. (Sorry, no title here!) But, there is something I want to get off my chest/rant about. (For those of you who don't know, I'm Asian American.)
I was clicking through author's sites and book excepts as I am wont to do, and encountered - a horror. I found an author who had Asian - Chinese, specifically "themed" books. Set in ancient China. I thought "oh wow- that's interesting." Not something you see every day, but really, a wellspring of fictional wealth. After all, there are thousands and thousands of years of history and culture. Believe me, I know. Sort of. I know there were multiple times I was supposed to learn the dynasties. (This is not the bad part.)
But this author was using "Chinese." Having her characters "speak" it. And of course, they had "Chinese" names too. Notice all the quotations. I'm so irritated. So much of it was so very wrong and so very outrageous. She had characters saying things they never would have said "in real life." A princess just would not speak that way. Or, characters speaking in a way no person ever would. There was a lot of gratuitous "Chinese" thrown in as well.
I will admit, you'll have that with any language. In fact I just read a short story set in France with a lot of clunky out of place French thrown in. They were pretty much the only thing that reminded you the story took place in France. - Does this annoy anyone else?
I think my problem was the author didn't really seem to know what s/he was talking about. At all. As if s/he hadn't bothered to even crack open a children's picture book on Chinese culture. And, the author was white. Hold on. Let me explain. You know the unspoken rule, how only you can make fun of your sibling/family/hometown/school/workplace - but others can't? Well, I'm feeling a little bit of that here. I don't like the superficiality of being "trendy" with no depth.
FYI sushi is not raw fish. Yes, sushi oftentimes does include raw fish, but sushi itself, does not mean raw fish. Please, do not say, "Sushi? Ew -I could never eat raw fish." Actually, I don't like sushi. (It's ok - it's a Japanese food 
) My problem with sushi is that the rice is vinegared. In my opinion, that's a waste of rice (because too often it's done badly.)
What I'm trying to say is, I'd like an author to look a little deeper, and think a little more. Especially if they're going to be distributing what they write. People are going to read it, and yes. Some of them are going to believe it. Television is a great example. Another FYI - You don't get Mirandized as soon as you're arrested. So if you're ever validly arrested and not
immediately Mirandized - your rights most likely have not been violated. Sorry.
Please, be realistic. Not all Asian guys are either kung fu masters or geeky nerds. Or gay. Or a combination. Not all Asian women are dominatrix bitches, or kung fu masters, or subservient and docile. We don't have "supah sekrit sex tricks" - well, no more or less than any other ancient culture. You don't get to wipe away history and culture and life by throwing in a lot of "duibuqi." ("I'm sorry" -don't even get me started on pinyin.)
The names were also bad. I've noticed if an author has an Asian character, oftentimes they have no problem just throwing out some random "Chinese sounding" name. Tong, Ping, and Lee, all those are popular. Lee is a last name. As is Lin, Chang, or W(o/a)ng. You don't meet Asian people named "Lin" because that'd be silly. It'd be like having a character named "Smith Smith" or "Brown Brown." The majority of Chinese names are actually quite similar to ancient Roman names. That's the best comparison I can draw. You have a praenomen, nomen, and cognomen. Names also aren't given predominately by how they sound - they're chosen by meaning.
It's really complicated, right? But, really - it's pretty basic at the same time. I mean, it's a name. If you can't get that right, and your entire book is based in China, in ancient China, we're looking at a lot of problems.
Believe it or not, I'm really tolerant of this. I get a lot of "konnichiwa," "ahnyeonghaseyo" (sorry - I'm 99.9% certain the phonetics of that are wrong), and "ni hao" being called at me when I walk around down town. (Thank you, American's Next Top Model.) That's "hello" in Japanese, Korean, and Chinese. (All Asians are the same, right?) Sometimes, I'll get "xie xie" too (oh, how I hate pinyin) - which doesn't even make sense, as that means "thank you." It's difficult to pronounce, I'll give you that. But once, in middle school my church was doing a cultural thing - and partnering with another church. My friends and I wore qipao - those horrible beautiful and restrictive dresses - and served food. One man said "shi shi ni" to me, and I stared at him dumbfounded. I heard him turn to his wife and say, "Oh - she doesn't speak Chinese." I fumed. I was also shocked. Had I not been so young, and if it weren't at church on a Sunday, I might have said, "Excuse me sir - did you just tell me to p*ss myself?" Because that's what he did, really. (And honestly - did he think I just didn't speak any language?)
I've had a myriad of similar experiences. But, for some reason, reading
those excerpts just really got my goat. Thoughts?
stereotypes
My Japanese friend (Japanese, not Japanese-American) Nami made some vegetable sushi, no fish, for my birthday years ago that did not have vinegared rice. I hate vinegar.
I get upset when I see sterotypes of Southerners (I am from NC but relocated to Colorado). Somehow it is different when it is a Southerner making the references or jokes though. I love these 2 books by Celia Rivenbark: Bless Your Heart, Tramp and We're Just Like You, Only Prettier: Confessions of a Tarnished Southern Belle. I guess it matters who is speaking. If it is someone who is part of a group making fun of themselves by exaggerating cultural tendencies, it seems to be more humorous. If the person does not belong to that group, it seems ignorant, rude, or some other offensive tone. I get tired of seeing boarding schools portrayed as a kid being neglected or unloved/unwanted by parents because I went to one and do admissions interviews for the school today. Even though the theme has been used well in my Harlequin reads, I would just like to see some variety in the way boardng school is used. I think television is often very bad about stereotyping people as if it is funny. Sitcoms are the worst.
AKA Merri
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Thank you!
Hi Paisley -
You got it! I'm so glad you agree. I was afraid I was going to get flamed terribly - especially with all the news and drama going on with plagiarism - but I was just so upset. I know sushi doesn't always have vinegared rice - or there are supposed to be varying degrees of it - but its just so hard to find it done well here. My parents always think I'm so silly for not liking sushi, but I think it's because I had *really* bad sushi when introduced to it and subsequent.
Stereotypes are what gets me - and it does matter who is doing it. Gentle ribbing between friends is fun - even if its borderline mean, depending on who you're with. Because it's in good humor. Snide remarks, however, are unacceptable. :-) I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say.
Oh I hate stereotypes....
And like Paisley, I get very touchy over the Southern ones. Yes, I'm originally from SC, lived there most of my life in fact. But I don't chew tobacco, wear overalls, etc, etc. My best friend growing up was Chinese and I know she would get SO frustrated over people assuming that all Asians were the same. Drove her nuts!
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Yes, definately
Hm... my previous answer got lost - but, ah yes. Stereotypes. *sigh*
Oh, I hear you ........................
I hate it when people "presume" to know how others of a certain background or profession will act or react ...... or how they'll "speak" ..... I read recently that "a farmer" would be portrayed differently in the bedroom than a "professor" ... the language used to describe the scene would be different, with the act with the "farmer" using four letter dirty words .... umm, not in this century ...... my particular "farmer" has a 145 IQ and invents his own harvesting and processing lines .... so intellect would have nothing to do with, and last I looked a farmer had the same anatomy as a professor ... so if four letter words apply to the farmer they certainly apply to the professor ... that type of presumption is a form of arrogance that doesn't sit with me
I agree .... if an author is going to create a world around an ethnicity or profession they should do the research ..... last year I read Kristin Hardy's Valentine Hearts trilogy .... the research she did on the Maple Sugar farms of today, and all their challenges was truly wonderful .... and she got it right ... she took the time to "understand" how her main characters would feel, act and react in their given circumstances ....
I hate it when the research is poorly done or non-existent .... just because it's fiction doesn't mean it's ALL made up
I'm sorry you had those experiences growing up .. and that you were reminded so strongly in this recent book of those feelings ...... in this day and age, you'd think the class and ethnic stereotypes would be long forgotten ....
~~ KatherineT ~~ I'm a Harlequin Addict, and I'm proud of it!
~~ Quiet Canadians ~ 2008 Book Challenge Blog
How nice
Thanks for sharing about Kristen Hardy's trilogy. It is really nice and rewarding when an author does their work and it shows.
I'm not asking for treatises - I know there's a worry about getting pedantic. But really now, don't insult readers by making things up. Fiction is forgiving yes, but don't abuse it.
And I definitely agree with you - I don't like how non academic/white color jobs automatically mean they're less intelligent or successful. To go along with your (very smart!) husband - my uncle is a janitor in NYC. He makes 6 figures, and used to own a number of restaurants (and still owns quite a bit of property). However, he got tired of it all, sold them, and found another job. One he enjoys so much that he could have retired but chose to keep working. His response is "what else would I be doing?"
I do also have a pet peeve about lawyer jokes. There are so many lawyers out there who work hard, and get things done. I realize there are some terrible people who are lawyers out there. But really now. They're not a terrible person due to being a lawyer. They're a terrible person who just happens to be a lawyer.
I hear you on the bad French in some books
and Michelle Willingham's books are excellent but her "Ta" and "Nil"
were getting on my nerves at the end, because in Irish "yes" and "no"
are just not that simple
and obviously I couldn't possibly know
about the Asian languages when I don't speak any, but I suspect a lot
of Portugese people could sympathise given the number of tourists who
assume that if they speak a bit of pidgin Spanish to them, it's all the
same
My pov on this is that you need to be an expert in any
subject to be able to sprinkle in minuscule details with great
parsimony and for them to seem and be perfect in context
Evelyn
Vaughn emailed me when she was setting Lost Calling in Paris and I
ended up sending her several long rambling emails about living in
France, because although she had visited Paris and France, she had
never lived here long-term (and it does make a difference). She
probably used 1% of what I told her, but nothing about Cat's
description of her flat made me think "she got that wrong"
It would be like me trying to write a book about post-Katrina
New Orleans when I've never been to the US, haven't the slightest idea
what a FEMA trailer looks like and have never had personal experience
of a natural disaster
It can be done, but if it's badly done, it will stand out like a VERY sore thumb
A long-winded way of saying you're not the only one to react like that and that it's an extremely legitimate reaction
Unfortunately
some people have a warped sense of humour and teach rude expressions to
people like the man you mentioned which is totally wrong because he may
then use it in good faith and generate your reaction without
understanding why. Let's hope that's what happened in this case, seeing
as the alternative is to believe he insulted you on purpose
Hugs
Sadhbh
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Oh good
Sadhbh - I'm glad that Evelyn Vaughn got it right - its just nice when people try. Actually, I have higher standards. I expect authors to try. (And of course any other person in any profession to do the same.)
I agree - a little research might make or break a book. It can either make everything seem that much more natural and involved, or end up as a major distraction.
As for the man - to... well I don't know what, but I don't believe someone taught him a "rude phrase." Mandarin Chinese is a tonal language, and it is extremely difficult to learn to speak properly. He was trying to say "thank you" - it was just he was so so so very off that it took me a few seconds to realize what he meant -and by that point he'd already insulted me by saying I didn't speak Chinese. It's tricky - one word/sound said in any of the 4 tones has a different meaning each time.
Chinese...
I think Chinese might be the hardest language to learn. My best friend tried to teach me all through school (we met in 3rd grade and were best friends through grad so plenty of time!) and she gave up. She pretty much told me that I would end up insulting someone because my pronunciation was soooooo bad. So on that note, I can sympathize with the guy~ but then he had to act like a jerk, you know?
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I think alot of ethnic/racial groups have a similar gripe....
I am part Mexican/American....people ask me if I am "Spanish". I say no, I am American...but I am of Mexican ancestry. They say whats the difference? I say Spanish people are from Spain (they're european), Mexicans are from Mexico. I think people who say "Spanish" think they are being polite....to them, to be Mexican is to be dirty). Its like saying negro or colored instead of Black.
And I dont speak spanish, so that is another issue. I am at least 5th generation American. Though my mother spoke spanish, she didnt see a reason for us kids to know it. Little did she know, that by the time I was an adult, it would be a great skill to have here in Los Angeles.
I know most Asian people are refered to as "Chinese" and most Latinos are "Mexican" (no matter if theyre from Mexico, Guatamala or where ever).
I grew up with the word "oriental". But I was corrected by actress Kim Miyori, when she said "oriental is a rug, we're Asian.
A southern friend of mine, is offended by Jeff Foxworthys "Redneck" jokes...she equates the word Redneck to the "N" word...but like Jeff says, "Country dont mean stupid", but when people hear a southern accent, they deduct 10 IQ points.
But, I say it doesnt matter what color your neck is. Anyone can be a Redneck...(like anyone can be an "N" word) if you listen to Jeffs jokes, everyone knows somebody like that.
But as another friend says...we are all cans of soup....we have to have labels.
Terri
Got Books?
anybody can be a
fill in the blank, but when they take off IQ points for no good
reason, they're underestimating you, and that can be a GREAT advantage
in negotiations
as long as you don't make the same mistake
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:-)
Hi Deb - yes, yes, yes! Haha - I tutored so many of my friends in chinese. If I had charged all of them, I could probably afford a lot more books that I want
. But maybe my payment was laughing at them (good humoredly, of course!) I could forgive the bad pronunciation - its how the man followed up with it.
Hello beonlyone - nice to meet you! Its interesting to see shifts- in elementary school everyone asked me if I was Japanese. And of course, all Asians are the same. I had students yelling at me, telling me people I was in no way related to were my siblings, because we were all Asian. *sigh* Actually, I'm Taiwanese - and I most prefer that - but I can accept Chinese, depending on the situation (politics makes it that much more difficult). I know there is was and sadly probably always will be racism. My point in this entry, however, is how disappointed I am in the author. The absolute lack of research is just unacceptable. Maybe I'm taking it too far, but this isn't a "general" thing - that book was the author's work. The entire setting and subject, and s/he couldn't even be bothered to do what I would consider rudimentary research. (As to your friend, I'm really suprised at how strongly she reacts to "redneck." My friends and I have discussed racial slurs, and we felt that there weren't really any horrible white ones. We thought of "cracker" - but it doesn't have the same effect of an insult, because people saying it just felt so ridiculous, and the response of people being called that was to laugh. But maybe it was because we were all friends.)
Sadhbh - I agree, unfortunately, after a while its just not fun to have people assume you're stupid. Sometimes people take self deprecating at face value, and then it just gets annoying for everyone. Oh, human relations.
I agree...
Alquis-I agree...I hate when people are writing movies or reading books, that it becomes obvious that the writer didnt do their homework. It is totally unprofessional. They prob think nobody will know the difference.
I forget what book It was, where I was reading a story about vikings. Someone was reading runes, and they told their friend that it was a language that died out thousands of years ago....well that was totally untrue. It has only been a few hundred years since runes have been used.
Terri
Got Books?
le sigh
I find it pretty insulting when authors/writers blatently get or do things wrong (that could easily have been corrected). I know there was a huge uproar when Gladiator came out, because a lot of experts and professors were consulted... then ignored.
I will say though, as annoying as it is in movies, I can understand that a bit more - maybe. But in a book - not so much. Also, because its mostly the author, and in either case, if it is painfully obvious everything is wrong, well, that's just not ok.
This is an interesting subject.
It reminds me of the show "A Family Affair" (19060s, Brian Keith with Sebastian Cabot as his butler). SC tried to learn Chinese to impress BK's clients with his hospitality, and he ended up calling the man's wife a pig.
I think you need to remember that most readers aren't familiar enough with other cultures to know whether or not the writer gets the details right. Like Sadhbh, I live in France. And so I tick onto things that are not right in the setting. But people who don't live in France, and haven't ever been here, don't care and it doesn't take away from their enjoyment of the book.
On a totally other subject, I was in Taiwan for about a week in 1987. I felt so disoriented because unlike Hong Kong, where (some of) the street signs were both in English and Chinese characters, all the signs in Taiwan were in Chinese characters. I couldn't even compare the sign to the names on my map since one character looked enough like the others that I couldn't tell the difference.
Luckily, I met an English-speaking Taiwanese man who helped me get into Taipei from the airport, an English-speaking Taiwanese women who spent one whole afternoon with me at a tea house, and then I discovered the ex-pat section of Taipei, with the Waltzing Mathilda pub where I met anglophones who were there on long term business. (I know. Such a cop out, falling back on the ex-pat section, but I felt soooooo overwhelmed.
)
"Perhaps what the average member of a group is capable of doesn't limit what a given individual can accomplish." -- Boston Globe, letter to the editor
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Hi FakeFrenchie- I
Hi FakeFrenchie-
I haven't seen that show - trying to figure out how the "pig"
thing could happen, but nothing is coming up.
I wouldn't say most readers don't notice details, more that they're willing
to be forgiving about a minor faux pas. I actually mentioned as well that I
read a short story set in France,
and the way it was written with the "random French" thrown in was
clunky. I'm mostly ok with things not being right in books- such as ones just
written that say the dollar is worth more than the euro (and it was published
in 2008). But there gets to be a point where too much is not ok. That is what I
was upset about. Like all the stereotypes and sweeping statements that upset
people in the previous comments.
As to being in Taiwan,
Everything is
that's interesting, because there was a huge American presence in Taiwan after
WWII. Its also a little funny, because all the Chinese there was relatively new
as well - and went over only when the KMT took over Taiwan in the late 40s. And yes-
that's the trouble with traveling in foreign countries.
generally in the language the government has chosen.
locations/accuracy
I live in Los Angeles, and I have a problem with movies that are filmed in and around LA.
Everything from Pretty Woman, to Speed, to Pulp Fiction. I know they cant possibly be where they say they are kinda thing.
In Pretty Woman Richard Gere Picks up Julia Roberts on Hollywood Blvd, then they turn a corner at they are at Beverly Wilshire Hotel (in Beverly Hills). Not exactly far, but not that close either.
In Pulp Fiction, the refer to living in the "818" or the "213".....only people who are familiar with this area, know those are area codes and their relationship to each other.
My biggest gripe is the TV show Numb3rs....they said "oh the guy is in Angel Square"......well, when they got to the location, it is actually a place down town called Pershing Square.
I guess they thought nobody would know....I wonder how many letters they got. People notice.
Terri
Got Books?
Oh movies
Haha - I can see why time/distance is off in movies - if they even filmed the whole drive, I'm sure it was edited out. Americans have very short attention spans. Some more "artsy" films might be more true to life, but I have to admit, at times I love "movie time."
Yeah -it's too bad what people can get away with, in not a good way. Of course, there are other people (who in fact have commented on this post!) who don't have a problem with discrepancies, etc. So, what can you do? :P
Everything is generally in the language the government…
This is true, but the thing is, even though I don't speak Spanish or Italian, I could compare the words on my map with the words on the street signs, and figure out where I was, because the letters were the same. But with the Chinese characters, I got confused. Of course, if I had lived in Taiwan for 6 months, I would have gotten more familiar with the characters, and maybe had more success. I certainly amused the waitress in the coffee shop next to my hotel. I asked her to supervise my pronouniation of the ham and eggs concoction I ate every morning for breakfast. No matter how I tried, she disolved into giggles!
"Perhaps what the average member of a group is capable of doesn't limit what a given individual can accomplish." -- Boston Globe, letter to the editor
March's Member of the Month!
Wondering how FF will react to the signposts in the West
of Ireland, (Gaeltacht areas) which are only "as Gaeilge", if she hasn't been careful enough to pick up a bilingual map of Ireland
Unfortunately a lot of the maps on sale are English only maps
Ireland has two official languages, but that doesn't oblige them to post English signposts in Gaeltacht areas
When
)
DH was still DBF he came to stay and I dutifully took him on a tour of
Ireland on the cheap (stayed with a different relative everywhere we
went
and one day we were visiting Connemara and arrived at a five-road
crossroads where I had to turn left to return to Galway city where the
signpost was only in Irish
not a problem I do read Irish, and Mum was an Irish speaker and was also in the car with us
the funny bit was that each of the five roads had a six-car tailback of cars on the shoulder going strictly nowhere
When I slowed, indicated and turned left, three of the six cars on all the roads promptly started up and followed me
Just as well I wasn't stopping at the B&B half a mile further on
When
I got back to France I recommended to all French people going to visit
Ireland by car to shell out that little extra dosh for the bilingual
map
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Dearest Gnat
ARe you by chance mocking me?
"Perhaps what the average member of a group is capable of doesn't limit what a given individual can accomplish." -- Boston Globe, letter to the editor
March's Member of the Month!
FF - moi, faire ça!
Perish the thought!
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Haha - oh goodness
Fake Frenchie and Sadhbh - you two crack me up!
Thanks for the tip, Sadhbh - if I ever go to Ireland, I'm going for the bilingual map.
Or a tour guide. Haha. Something.
FF - It's a little interesting you say that, because while reading characters is ridiculously difficult, some people don't have a problem recogizing certain ones/lists because they think of the characters less as words and more as pictures. Hehe - yes, I will admit to giggling at bad accents. But at the same time I easily admit a lot of my white classmates read and wrote much better than I did/do. My "penmanship" is better, and definitely my speaking, but I can't write essays, etc. It wasn't a necessary skill for me, and I managed to get by. Haha, I also mostly took independent study Chinese classes, so there was very little writing involved, even though I took all the "reading and writing intensive" tracks.
FF -were we being funny?
It must just come naturally
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stero-types
I understand completly.. I am from Kentucky, but I grew up in West Virginia. We moved to North Eastern PA and my husband worked in a store in New York. Not every person was like this but a couple of people were like "oh your accent is so neat! Where are you from?" When Id say "oh we moved from WV." People would actually say to me " Thats a state?" OH PLEASE!!! I wanted to ask if they taught US history in the north. LIke I said not every person was like that only a few.
My sister lived in California for a few years and she was checking out this woman and she said neat accent where are you from? My sister said Kentucky. The woman replys I thought all people from Kentucky were barefoot and pregnant. My sister was so shocked she replied, I thought all people in California were skinny and blonde.(the woman was large)
I think people need to stop assuming anything.
I will stop ranting now.
Hope everyone has a great day!!
Aggie
Housework can wait, I wanna read!!!! =)
Team Pretty in Pink~~
ROTFLOL Aggie
I shudder to think what stereotypes are attributed to Irish people just because of li'l ol' me
maybe I'm better off not knowing
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There was a time when,
the Irish were prety much treated worse than a cockroach....that the Irish werent even really seen as people in this country (US) before JFK became president.
I forget the name of the movie about an Irish R & B group, where one guy says something like "The Irish are like the negroes of Europe...I'm black and I'm proud'.
Terri
Got Books?
Never having been to the US, I can't judge what it was like
for the emigrants, but certainly Irish people in Ireland have no pride problems
I'm sure you've heard of an Irish inferiority complex - we think other nationalities are maybe half as good as we are
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:-P
Sadhbh -- oh my. :-) -and for back in the day, I'd have to agree with beonlyone - "poor" and "Irish" seemed to go hand in hand. That and potatoes... I haven't met many Irish people, but the people with the most pride I've met are the Canadians. They travel with flags, paraphernalia, etc and all know the national anthem. Maybe its just Americans don't have enough nationalistic pride, but I was impressed. (And I've read articles about it.) I have found though, every nationality thinks their own is the best when you get down to it.
Aggie - HAHAHAHAHA she did not. Where in NY did you live? People from NYC and LA, I've noticed believe there is them, possibly some other large city, maybe Chicago, and FL. And they think their city is pretty much the size of the entire state - and surrounding ones. I make fun of my CA friends a lot. (I'm from OH). I also can't believe people were so very rude. Unconscionable.
beonlyone- it wasn't just the Irish - pretty much every (later) immigrant was treated the same - on the west coast it was the Asians. And discrimination against them lasted even longer - they weren't allowed to immigrate to the US until the ... 70s for a long, long time. I teach underprivileged at risk children in a, I suppose inner city school for a program, and there was one lesson with the word "negroes" and the students wouldn't even read it - they called that the "n" word. I agree it is outdated and shouldn't be used - but it made me wonder how they'd feel about the "real" n word...
Alquis....
Yes, you are right about Asians and the Asian Exclusion Act....my parents told me about it. They lived here in Los Angeles growing up.
My dad rememberd leaving for school one day and the street was lined with Japanese Americans waiting to be picked up to be taken to camps (there was alot of Asian, mostly japanese in this neighborhood, back in the day). Alot of them never came back after they were released.
Later, in High School, I read Farewell to Manzinar, wichis a young Japanese American girls account of life in the camp. Sort of an Anne Frank kind of story (an other book I read in High School).
And you were right that there was a time where immigrants in general werent treated very nice...Italians, Irish, Eastern Europeans. I guess anyone who wasnt a WASP (or is that now an ethnic slur)
I have never heard of the word negro being equated to the "N" word...I guess to be politically correct we have to use the correct label of the day.
I know, in doing census research for my family history, I have found my ancestors listed as Black, colored, or negro. I guess future generations will find the label African American.
But even my paternal great-grandmother who was "white" and Indian (excuse me, Native American), was referd to as "colored" in the census.
I put white in quotations, because, I believe that if we are going to use African American, Mexican-American, etc....we should also use terms like Danish-American, Irish-American, and so on. And since Africa is not a country, we should break it down to what kind of African (if possible), Like Barack Obama is a Kenyon American.
I once met the actor Branscombe Richmond. He played Bobby Sixkiller on the TV show "Renegade" With Lorenzo Lams.
Well Branscombe played a Native American On Renegade, but in real life he is Hawaiian. He told me to call him "Pineapple". I didnt know what to do...to me that would have been an ethnic slur. Like calling someone a taco. Lucky my time with him was short.
we are all cans of soup...we all need labels.
Terri
Got Books?
We lived in a small town on
We lived in a small town on the border of NY and Pa. It was a town called Matamoras. My husband worked at a Wal-mart in Middletown Ny. We live in OH now. I LOVE LOVE it here. People are nice and friendly. Everything is nice and slow and thats just the way I like it lol.
Aggie
Housework can wait, I wanna read!!!! =)
Team Pretty in Pink~~
Canadians
the people with the most pride I've met are the Canadians. They travel
with flags, paraphernalia, etc and all know the national anthem.
The explanation I got for that while I was traveling in Europe is that they didn't want to get mistaken for Americans!
"Perhaps what the average member of a group is capable of doesn't limit what a given individual can accomplish." -- Boston Globe, letter to the editor
March's Member of the Month!
that's an interesting perspective ......
I'm wondering when that changed .... as a Canadian, I've always observed more national pride in Americans ... I do agree though, esp. when travelling abroad, we Canadians want to be known as Canadians, our flag on luggage etc. helps to convey that ...
curious about the national anthem ... doesn't every country know their own anthem? .... we're taught it in school
~~ KatherineT ~~ I'm a Harlequin Addict, and I'm proud of it!
~~ Quiet Canadians ~ 2008 Book Challenge Blog
Most of the Canadians I have known
live here in LA...I have never asked them why they left home.
My Canadian co-worker says that when she travels around the US, people hear her accent and think she is English...they prob just know she sounds different.
But when she was in Europe, people thought she was American. Again, she sounds different...but doesnt sound English, sho she must be American.
I dont know my national anthem as well as I should...it is a really difficult song to sing....I dont say the pledge of allegience though.
While I love my country, I am no flag waver. I am not one of those people who are "my country, right or wrong". I will voice my opion about what I feel is wrong. there is so much hypocracy and prejudice that I need to voice my opinions (as you guys can see).
Terri
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Beonlyone
You go, girl!
"Perhaps what the average member of a group is capable of doesn't limit what a given individual can accomplish." -- Boston Globe, letter to the editor
March's Member of the Month!
Terri ......
As a Canadian, that's how I viewed most of my countrymen ... not as flag wavers .... and we are most definitely vocal about what is wrong with our own country .... just look at our comedy sitcoms .... we are always poking fun at ourselves ... there are only a few things that really get our pride in an uproar ... our "national" hockey teams for the worlds and olympics ... is pretty much top of the list ... LOL
~~ KatherineT ~~ I'm a Harlequin Addict, and I'm proud of it!
~~ Quiet Canadians ~ 2008 Book Challenge Blog
I am going to throw a side
I am going to throw a side arm in there, in that I think it is a shame more people aren't more aware of their country, its history and its emblems. I don't expect people to know every state capital in the US, but when people are shown a map of the country and can't pick out a state like Texas or Montana, it makes me a bit sad. How can we critize our country, when we don't know our history. (Not saying that we should or shouldn't critize - thats a whole other discussion - just that we should know what we are talking about.) And how do we know where to go forward, if we don't know who we all are. Just my thoughts for what they are worth.
Cady
TBR--The Born Readers
Cady
I agree....one needs to where they come from. It is not enough to be "American". You need to know your own history. You need to know about your ancestors and where they came from.
One of the reasons I got into family history and genealogy, is just for that reason. Your history is everybody's history. Also because I wanted to see if the stories my grandfather told were true.
Alot of minorities think they dont have a history. Black people are tought that they were slaves and that is that. That they didnt do anything to contribute to the building of this country or the world.
I found my ancestors did contribute..sure they were slaves, but they were freed back in 1819 and settled on land that they farmed and cultivated. They worked hard, they became inventors, leaders, servants, doctors, lawyers and had the same dreams as everyone else. Sure things were hard, but being white is no guarantee of sucess either.
In searching my family history, I can see now why I am who I am today. Why my parents and grand parents were the way they were.
"White" people need to know their history as well. There is a sense of pride in yourself when you see where you come from. Skelatons, black sheep an all.
Your countrys history is important as well. You do need to be able to at least point out Ohio on a map.
And be aware of the world at large. I have learned about different people and places, not just from classes, but from travel and from pen pals i have had around the world.
I have had Canadian pen pals who say that people have asked them if they live in log cabins, or if they have running water.
Terri
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Yes, knowing your history is important .....
it's very hard to know where you're going if you haven't a clue of where you've been ...... history does repeat itself ..... not taking the time to be aware of the past and the world around us, only leads to misunderstandings and those presumptions we've been taking about .... we need to learn to be "broadminded" and not live in our own little bubble
ROFL, Terri ..... this reminds me of the young family that travelled through out town one July with their skidoos on a trailer and their skis on their roof .... they stopped to ask how much further to the snow ..... ROFL .... I had such a hard time explaining to them they had one heck of a long way to go! ...
~~ KatherineT ~~ I'm a Harlequin Addict, and I'm proud of it!
~~ Quiet Canadians ~ 2008 Book Challenge Blog
Terri - I agree your
Terri - I agree your individual history really gives you a spotlight on understanding things.
Katharine - Where in Canada do you live? It is always odd to me, people who see Canada as such, we lived in Michigan and traveled to Ontario fairly often, so they just seemed like neighbors.
Cady
TBR--The Born Readers
I'm in Southern Ontario......
about 30 miles north of Toronto .......
that incident happened about 10 years ago .... it was a young couple with small children .... fairly affluent from the type of vehicle and the fact they had two snow machines .... I was rather shocked .... in July
we were in Retail .... one of those large touristy farmers markets ...... so we had alot of American tourists come through ..... had one ask me how to get to Frog land ... their kids had read that frogs had their own country in Canada and they wanted to see this for themselves ... they asked all sorts of questions about frogs ..... I groaned ... they were serious!
boggles the mind
~~ KatherineT ~~ I'm a Harlequin Addict, and I'm proud of it!
~~ Quiet Canadians ~ 2008 Book Challenge Blog
I know my national anthem
because it's (or used to be) played at every GAA match, every
national rugby match, at the end of every dance and disco to signal the
end of festivities and was played on national television when they used
to close down for the night
It's one of the things I miss most
when I go out in France - that they don't have an easily identifiable
way of signalling that it's time to go home
I know the French national anthem because i learned it to be able to teach it to the boys
DH
apologised for the violence of the French national anthem, I reassured
him that the Irish one is just as violent, its saving grace is that
very few people understand it
I
have an interesting personal history, my paternal grandfather was in
jail in Wales when my father was born, because he'd been involved in
the 1916 Rising in the G.P.O., my maternal grandfather left Belfast,
taught himself Irish and became the headmaster of an Irish primary
school, he got married to my grandmother who had previously dated a
British soldier.
We still have Grandad's diaries from his jail
cell - more the "autographs" exchanged between the prisoners - a cousin
is keeping close watch on it but I can borrow it whenever I want to,
she's more afraid of it ending up with someone who won't appreciate its
value
My train of thought got hijacked by starving men
Hugs
Sadhbh
Dream Team 2008 Challenge blogs
A funny story
one of my grandfathers stories, I will never be able to document. But It is funny (at least to me),
My grandfather was born about 1889.... in Highland County Ohio. Sometime in the 1890's or so, his parents (my great grand parents) decided to pack up the kids and move west....they ended up in Pasadena, CA.
The story goes, that as the train went through Texas, the train was held up by men on horse back....They went car by car robbing the passengers.
Once the robbers got to the "colored car", they looked around and saw all the black folks, and said "aw, these are just a bunch of "N's"....they dont got nothin'." They gave my grandfather and his sister each a nickle and left.
Terri
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KatherineT
I live in Los Angeles....people expect us all to be blonde and fit.
we all rollerblade down by the beach, wear dark sunglasses and drive convertables.
Like Totally.....Duuuuude ....we'll do lunch.
Terri
Got Books?
Poor Spain
Isn't it Spain that has no words to it's national anthem, so that the country has to hum along when it plays? THAT'S got to be weird!
Jayne
Community Manager
"We cannot really love anybody with whom we never laugh"—Agnes Repplier
Acckkk so many comments!
Haha, everyone I'm so glad we're having all these discussions - and so many stories! Fascinating. (Also, please realize some of my comments are meant to be jokes. I know online its hard to tell. I have a very irreverant sense of humor - just thought I'd throw that caveat out there.)
Hi Terri - Yes, well, there were a lot of different things. Japanese people in Hawaii weren't allowed to own land - they were like sharecroppers of the tropics. And the Asian Exclusion Act and a lot of other discriminatory occurances - such as (how I hate to mention this) - the Chinese and laundry businesses after the gold rush went bust (Chinese people often weren't allowed to pan for gold.) And the Acts -and it's interesting and sad you mentioned the Japanese internment, because I just read the Korematsu case. As to words, part of it is personal opinion, and part of it is changing times. Prior to college "Oriental" didn't offend me - I thought nothing of it. Not that it was used much. But, now, I know it's an outdated term. Not so much malicious, but we just don't use it anymore. Like "colored" or "negro." My students really were not happy about "negro" being in a handout, and some of my friends get really offended. I don't get mad at the word "Oriental" but I still don't think it should be used. For races, some people do say they're Italian, Irish, etc. Yes, its important to have an identity, but Americans themselves as a melting pot do too. Its important to have that -and I think a lot of it depends on how closely tied you are to whatever ethnicity you are. For example, I speak 2 languages at home, neither of which is English. I joke with my friends about being "pure bred" and them being muts - b/c they're "1/16" of everything - but of course, its in good fun. I think its nice to have a rich mix of cultures and ethnicities. Otherwise, its just too much. There has to be meaning behind the words.
Also, that story about the RR is terrific. Well, horrible because of the assumptions, but I love it. I hope you grandfather had $$ on him. That'd be justice.
And, politics are hard. Of course the US doesn't always do the wrong thing - the Philippines and Iran "way back" would be great examples, and of course the more modern ones don't even bear mentioning. However, a lot of the blame goes to the media too, now. Oh, how I hate the media, that lying scum. If only the media moguls were willing to "use their powers for good"
. No - seriously though. Ugh. I'm so sick of the media and politics I haven't even been following the primaries. And this coming from a PolSci major, that's bad. Congratulations US + media, you've made me completely apathetic.
Aggie - le sigh oh upstate/podunk NYers. Of course, I'm bad too. When I say "New York" I mean the city. But then, I've made about 24 trips there. That has to give me some sort of "cred" right? - And where in OH do you live?
FF - ooo buuurn. Still, the world hates America, yet emulates it and depends on it for a lot. So, what can you say. Silly world. In about 50 years we'll be hating China and India, probably.
Katherine - well good! I have met very few Americans with nationalistic pride. I think it helps we live on a huge huge land mass where there is only us. Well, and Canada who everyone jokes about annexing (sorry!), and Mexico which didn't even bear considering for a long time. i'm just stating general sentiments. Interesting about not wanting to be ID'd as Americans. From what I've heard and articles I've read, happy Canadian travellers don't just have the sole flag, etc, they bring bunches to pass out and share the love. Of course, that was a few years ago. Or, my information could be totally wrong. As to the National Anthem... I can't remember ever being formally taught it. I don't know it.. unfortunately. Not word for word. I knew a lot more "nationalistic" songs while younger... and now I don't think kids say the pledge of allegiance in schools because it has the word "God"...
Cady - it is sad when people don't know where things are on a map. At the same time, I'll give you, its quite hard. There's a website out there that times you. It gives you states - no names, of course, and you have to place them on an unlined unmarked map. Ridiculously difficult. I'm afraid I get a few of the mountain states mixed up sometimes - I'll have to think about them. Afterall, they're all in the "middle" and square!
- No, I do agree with you that people should know the US states. The capitals - that's hard, but I did know them all at some point in my life. I'll have to ask my 4th and 5th graders next week if they have the 50 states memorized...
Sadhbh - good for you! My mind is a sieve. I think at some point I knew the lyrics. I knew so much more when I was younger (bad since I'm still young - no, really!) I used to know the preamble, and so on and such forth. Now... well... :-P
Jayne - hahah is it? Oh - that's funny. Poor Spain what a "cop out"
Alquis...
I readilly admit I am probably one of the biggest mutts there are....Between the Blacks, the Indians and the Mexicans....I dont even know who my European ancestors would be....but I am digging into my roots.
you're probably right about the train story though....my great grand parents were moving their family and just about everything they owned...who knows what they may have had on them.
i dont get too upset with lables....I always consider the source...some people are just ignorant and dont know any better.
But then again....I dont know if any fuss has been made about sports teams having names like "Redskins", "Vikings", "Indians", or "Braves".....while Viking is not a "bad word", and Indian and Brave arent either...but I really object to the use of "Redskin". Would they name a team the (fill in, derogatory term here).
Sometimes we dont realize we are using a derogatory term, like the word "Squaw". or to say you have been gyped.
Terri
Got Books?
Good point
Terri - I've never used the word "squaw" - but it's a good point you make. I've never even thought about "gypped." We all need to be a bit more sensitive.
My "mutt" and "pure bred" comments were mostly made in hs - and stemmed from people bragging about their super anglo backgrounds. (I grew up in a suburb that was like 98% white). The Indians are my home team - they had to get rid of "chief wahoo" and now the mascot is Slider. And the Illini had to get rid of Illiniwek. There are, however, some awful teams/mascots still out there. There's a hs in my area like that.
And Oh....
I also object to the Atlanta Braves "Tomahawk Chop". I find it offensive. I wonder if indians ever protested.
the word squaw refers to a certain female body part. Given to indian women by (French?) explorers.
Terri
Got Books?
Middletown is actually in
Middletown is actually in southern Ny. Its about an hour and a half south of the City. I also thought of NY as NYC until we lived on the border. We lived there for a year and I couldn't bring myself to like it there at all.
Right now we live about 25 mins from CIncy. Much better than where we were before. We have lived in a lot of places. This one is the best by far.
Aggie
Housework can wait, I wanna read!!!! =)
Team Pretty in Pink~~