Does the Use of the Words “Wry” and “Wryly” Annoy You?

 

Hi All: 

       This may seem odd but I find it highly annoying to read the words "wry" or "wryly" in a romance. I'm not sure what these words mean when used. Their use makes me feel the author was just being lazy and noncreative. I would prefer the author to structure the context of the statement so as to make it clear what meaning or emotion was intended. For example, don't say "John said good-bye, angrily" rather write "John said good-bye as he slammed the door behind him making the picture on the wall rattle."

      Do you find the words "wry" and "wryly" annoying? Do you know what the author means by the use of these terms?  Are there any  words you find annoying.  Lately, it seems these terms are way over used by the authors I am currently reading.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Vince

“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince

Tags

Hi Vince...

Can't say I've noticed wry or wryly in a story. But I agree with you. I do get annoyed at the over use of adverbs, which is just what you were pointing out with wryly. Adverbs were used much more by the previous generation of writers, I think. 

I have a romance from the '70s that I bought used in the '90s. I never got past chapter one, but I've kept it all these years because of the obvious overuse of adverbs. And no one just says something in this story, they all cry, shout, or exclaim. Or they say it sternly, curtly, or shortly. 

I've been cutting out almost all dialog tags in my writing. I use it if there are more than two people conversing and even then I try to use description to denote who is talking. It's a style I've noticed in more recent reads and I enjoy the challenge.

Example: 

     She turned and looked at the man beside her. “You can let me out here.” 

     The light changed and he moved the car forward. “Sorry, can’t.” 

No dialog tags used but you know who is talking.

Or, instead of adverbs, like you mentioned, I try to describe the emotions. 

Example, instead of

     "Ha! Lot you know," she said shakily.

I used: 

     “Ha! Lot you know.” There was a slight tremor in her voice along side the bravado. It struck him unawares, unleashing protective instincts he’d though he’d buried deep, long ago.

That shows how both characters were experiencing the moment.  

IMHO

According to Encarta®

According to Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. (All
rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.)

 wry adj
1.    combining, or expressing a mixture of, mild amusement and irony
2.    characterized by or showing a slightly ironic acceptance of something not particularly pleasant or desirable
3.    out of shape or twisted to one side

Irony is hard to show.  So if "wry" and/or "wryly" are the appropriate word(s), why not?

"Perhaps what the average member of a group is capable of doesn't limit what a given individual can accomplish." -- Boston Globe, letter to the editor
March's Member of the Month!

Fake Frenchie...

I agree.  I don't see it as being lazy at all.  It's just not something that can be easily shown.  Besides, adverbs are a perfectly good part of the English language and fine in a book as long as they aren't overused.

It's No Excuse...

 Hi All:

     It is no excuse to say that "irony" is hard to show!   My copywriters used to come to me (as copy editor) and say it was too hard to write advertising copy to the "total selling" guidelines necessary to write copy that sells  and I would always say, "Well, if it was easy, anyone could be a copywriter. Now go do it right."

     Yes, it's hard to show irony, but a good writer will do it. It can always be done by a creative writer who cares. Always. A lazy writer will just use an adverb. (To be fair, the writer may not be lazy at all but only less talented. She may still be telling rather than showing as good writing dictates.)

     Adverbs are a good part of English - especially in non-fiction. In fiction however I expect better.  

     BTW, watch for "wryly" in you current reading. I will have to pull some quotes from the last books I read when I get time. When you see all the quotes, you'll better see what I mean.

Thanks for your posts,

Vince

“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince

Sometimes succinctness is good.

I don't find wryly a problem as it conveys a lot in a single word.

One word  I don't like is "throatily"- however that seems to be in the older books rather than the newer books, thank goodness.

SHE WHO IS MOST OBSERVANT


to dream the impossible dream...
this is my quest-to follow that star..

Why...

write a whole paragraph when one simple word will suffice?  Vince, perhaps the difference is that you like to become a part of the story and so for your reading style you need to be immersed in the story. That is not my reading style and hence adverbs, when used in moderation, work for me.  I think it is unfair to say a fiction writer is being lazy or still learning the craft but that a nonfiction writer can use adverbs as I would think the nonfiction would have more likeness to  your advertising example.

There are no Absolutes

Hi All:

       I have to admit that everyone has good points. There are no absolutes in writing. I do think the nonfiction writer needs to be short, clear, direct, and often persuasive. You are usually not telling a story or asking the reader to suspend disbelief to become part of the story. All my training is in nonfiction. This training, is helpful in many cases, but I have seen it get me into trouble with writing fiction. Fiction is proving very hard for me to get right.

       I would just like, however, to show you examples of the use of "wryly" in the book I am currently reading by Lucy Gordon. You should know that Lucy Gordon is my favorite romance author. I read everyone of her books as soon as I can. So I am not picking on her. But look at these examples from her current book: "The Italian's Passionate Revenge".

"Wryly, she wished he would wear something." P91

"Me too," she said wryly.p.180

"Not with us," he agreed wryly. P183

"No, I suppose I should apologize", she said wryly..p24

"Really!," she said wryly, trying to picture him looking at the shabby little hotel.p42

"Because you weren't taking any notice", he admitted wryly. P77

He glanced wryly at Vincente, adding, "If you can stand it signora." P78

As much as I love Lucy Gordon, I just think this is bad writing. When I read "wryly" it like the author said to me, "You do the heavy lifting and figure out what this means I'm too busy to show you."  This may be just me and that's why I posted this. I can't generalize that anyone else will feel the same way as I do. However, other fans may have other words that annoy them.

Thanks,

Vince

“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince

I would tend to agree for

I would tend to agree for the first three, although you don't give us very much context to make a decision.  But, I think the last 4 are spot on.  Now, I would like you post an example of showing "wryly".  I don't see how it can be done.

Also, I would be careful of stating that certain writers are lazy, based on 10 uses of wryly in a book of 80 000 words.  That's less than 0.000125 in terms of laziness, which is pretty damn good in my book.. 

"Perhaps what the average member of a group is capable of doesn't limit what a given individual can accomplish." -- Boston Globe, letter to the editor
March's Member of the Month!

What Did You Mean FF?

 Hi FF:

     I don't want this to get out of hand.  When I say "lazy" I mean in the writing of that one sentence only.  It was the lazy way to write that particular sentence. Everything else in the novel could be great.

      I'm not saying the book is bad. I'm just saying the word "wryly" annoys me and I have been reading the word too many times in too many books that I've read over the last month. I just picked Lucy Gordon's book because that is the one I am reading right now. As a person, Lucy Gordon, is not lazy. She write too many fine books a year to be lazy. However, within a book there are easy ways to do a scene or paragraph and there are the harder, better, more professional ways. Like doing research or using specifics to show it is a beautiful day rather than saying "it was a beautiful day"...I think you know what I mean. I think I would call these spells in a book when the author was on "automatic pilot" - I have sure seen a lot of "tired" copywriting that was written on "automatic pilot".

    BTW, I have not been able to figure out what you meant by the below sentence. What is it you want me to do?  I'd like a challenge.

     "Now, I would like you post an example of showing "wryly".  I don't see how it can be done."FF

Thanks,

Vince

“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince

As far as the adverb is concerned ....

I rather like "wryly" .... it's very expressive and I'm used to reading it, especially from British authors  .... so the words wry or wryly don't annoy me at all

as far as your example is concerned ... obviously the author has fallen into the repetitive trap and neither she or her editor has noticed this ... as Lucy Gordon writes HRs and now HPs, it's a short format and word count is on the light side .... so perhaps she had it right but her count was over, and decided to go back and slip in the "wryly" instead of editing out scenes that mattered more

not saying I'd like the over use .... if this is the recent HP, I have it in my TBR and I'll get to it sometime (not now though, I've found that some of your reviews influence my reading, so I'll wait maybe til Christmas to read this one)   .... over use of any adverb if noticed by the reader, can be rather annoying ... depends on the context 

 

I did want to mention your example earlier about angrily ...  I would prefer that John spoke angrily, than for him to slam the door with enough force to make the pictures rattle .... I don't mind a few slammed doors, we all do it from time to time and it's usually out of frustration more than anger .... for a door to be slammed with that force the circumstances would have to warrant it .. otherwise it's a display of uncontrolled anger and that to me is violent and not desirable in a hero or heroine for that matter ... so you need to be careful how you show the emotions ... which emotions you decide to show intensely ... especially the negative emotions

 

~~ KatherineT ~~ I'm a Harlequin Addict, and I'm proud of it!
~~ Quiet Canadians ~ 2008 Book Challenge Blog

Obviously a little late, but had to put in my opinion

Since when should a fiction writer be held to a higher standard than a non-fiction writer?  I thought non-fiction was the more literary genre and therefore should be held to a higher standard.

 

I think that adverbs should be used in fiction because it does help to cut the word count, and unfortunately many of today's society is not as educated as they once were, and the use of adverbs is most likely easier for them to understand when reading.  

 

 

Also I believe that lines like Harlequin are cutting word count, so why should an author waste their precious words when one word would do?

Sandi

The Born Readers

Outside of a dog a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

Have you sat down and typed out a ms for Harlequin?  That said, focusing on one or two words that might be used a bit repetitiously is probably not a good thing considering the effort the author has taken to write the book. 

 

Now, as for the use of the word 'wryly', if the book is written with a lot of satire and sarcasm then I think the word is perfectly at home with the context.  It's simply a word that sums up the general feeling.  For instance, if the author states that the character turned up one side of his mouth sardonically and says something wryly, then you get the gist that what he's saying fits his expression.  There are some expressions or emotions that can be captured with one word.  Over-writing them can ruin a story, or simply not fit in.

 

I do have to agree that there are words that get under my skin.  However, I try to skip over them so they won't ruin the story for me.  After all, why let such a small word or two color the overall view?  Character and plot development are much more important to me. I know they are to you too, Vince.  Smile

"Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see."

- Mark Twain

Is “Wryly” a tone of voice?

 

Hi All:

    My problem with "wryly" may be a British thing. It could also be because the word does not tell me anything and I find that annoying. It would be better, for me at least, if the term were deleted. I don't think the prose would lose anything by deleting the word "wryly".

    How many people if asked to say "The cat is on the mat" wryly could actually do it?  I could say anything angrily but wryly, I don't know how do to it.  

     Pretend you are in a method acting class and the coach wants you to say "The cat is on the mat" wryly. Could you do this?  And would any two people agree with each other on how to express this sentence? Sealed 

Thanks,

Vince

“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince

I'd Say Fiction is more Literary than NonFiction...

Hi Sandi:

You wrote:

Since when should a fiction writer be held to a higher standard than a non-fiction writer?  I thought non-fiction was the more literary genre and therefore should be held to a higher standard.

 

     I would say that fiction and nonfiction are held to different standards. Often writers can not do both well.  Nonfiction need only covey the essential ideas effectively. "The Critique of Pure Reason" for example is one of the greatest works of philosophy and probably the worse written.  You can be a terrible writer and write important nonfiction if you have something to report of value. But with fiction, you are story telling and creating a world in the reader's mind. These are very different realms I would also hold that nonfiction is no where near as literary as fiction. The best written philosophy is by Plato and that is because he was also a playwright and his works also stand as literature. As someone who wrote nonfiction for a living for over thirty years, I bow easily to fiction as being the more literary.

Thanks,

Vince

“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince

Hi KatherineT:

You wrote:

"I did want to mention your example earlier about angrily ...  I would prefer that John spoke angrily, than for him to slam the door with enough force to make the pictures rattle "

     I should point out that the "slamming the door" angry example was just showing how to do it where it would be appropriate. For example, if the woman said to the hero, "I don't love you, I never loved you, and the baby is not even yours," then it might be appropriate to slam the door.   

      In a mild case it would be something like,  "he left the room noticing only afterward that he had crushed his sunglasses in his clenched fist.."   Whatever example used must be appropriate to the story needs. One example of a heroine being flustered that I really liked was in a romance where the heroine jumped out of her car and absentmindedly locked her keys in her still running car. This showed it so much better than just saying she was flustered.

Thanks,

Vince

“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince

I really do think...

that a large part of this is a difference in how various folks read.  I don't want all the details you are describing.  In fact, it's one reason I quit reading John Grisham as frankly pages and pages were wasted on phrases such as those.  However, there are others who LOVE those descriptions.  Both sides are okay.  I don't think this is a right or wrong issue, and I'm easily able to envision words like "wry", "flustered", and "angry" without other details.   And yes, I can say a sentence and say it wryly~ I've been told by others that I do so and so I know this to be true to the perception of more than just myself. Sometimes the beauty of a story is in the succintness and the simplicity of the language as it cuts right to the heart of the story.  I appreciate that we differ on this so to go back to your original question, no, the use of wry doesn't annoy me.

No.  I love the English

No.  I love the English language.  I appreciate it when romance authors do not dumb down vocabulary. Romance readers are bright, intelligent women and, I for one, do not like being written down to.   One of the things I love about historical romance is that often I learn new words, sometimes foreign words.  It's why I like the Medicals and ones set in other countries.  I like vocabulary used correctly, not just picked through a thesaurus.   Anyhow, I do not think romance or romance readers or women need to be dumbed down.

AKA Merri
Family Challenge Team: The Spine Breakers with my dh Glenn AKA Phaedrus

My Brother Has the Same Opinion of John Grisham!

Hi Debbie:

           This might be a little off topic but my brother told me last week that he also stopped readng John Grisham for similiar reasons. Laughing 

            Thanks,

                         Vince

 

 

“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince

I'd like you to post an excerpt in which the writer shows something being done "wryly" but doesn't use the word wryly.  I don't think it is possible so show "irony", which is a big part of "wry".  But I'm willing to let you show me that it can be done.Wink

"Perhaps what the average member of a group is capable of doesn't limit what a given individual can accomplish." -- Boston Globe, letter to the editor
March's Member of the Month!

We Hold these Truths to be Self-Evident

Hi FF:

      What do you mean:  it's hard to show?

     How do you think we ever learned the word in the first place?  Someone showed the behavior and then someone else applied the term to what was evidenced. We didn't have the word "wryly" first and then someone said "Let's come up with a behavior for this neat new word."

 

I think it is just a cop-out to say "it's hard to show". So what? Get creative.  Show some talent. Be a writer!

 

Now for your challenge.

 

Oscar was being escorted across the prison yard to meet the warden when he noticed many  malnourished and poorly dressed prisoners.

The guard said, "Don't expect any fancy treatment here my lad."

Oscar turned to the guard and said,"If this is the way Queen Victoria treats her prisoners, she doesn't deserve to have any."  

 

     Now do I really need to say "Oscar turned to the guard and said, wryly if this is the way...?  If it really was wry, you wouldn't have to say it was said "wryly" - it would be self evident! Show it don't tell it!  Romance Writing 101.

 

Oh, I have to thank Oscar Wilde for the Wry Comment.

Thanks,

Vince

“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince

Personal Opinion

Now you're attacking people for not agreeing with you, and doing it in a rather strong degrading manner.  I think you owe FF just a public an apology as you gave her a verbal beating.

 Not everyone in the world is as highly educated as you report yourself to be, nor do they have the command of language, that you fancy yourself to have, and lastly they may not have the level of comprehension that you claim to have...therefore having books written in more simplistic langugage, whether it appeals to your perception of "quality literature" and " intelligence on the author's part" is vital to the author's ability to become a bestseller, because without having mass appeal they will never be a bestselling author.

 I have other things I'd love to say, but I'll probably be warned about what I've arleady said, so for the moment I'll shush. 

Sandi

The Born Readers

Outside of a dog a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

I don't Quite Understand You Comment...

Hi Sandi:

"I think you owe FF just a public an apology as you gave her a verbal beating."

I am not sure I understand this statement. I am sure FF knows more about Romances than I do. I also think she would disagree with you that I gave her a verbal beating.  FF could very well dispute my example.  Also, I probably agree with FF more than with anyone else on these boards. I would not want to make her feel bad or look bad.

Thanks,

Vince

 

 

“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince

My comment means...

That it doesn't come off as you agreeing with her.  it comes off as mean and rude, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

I'm glad you like her and agree with her, because as I read these comments it doesn't appear to be the case to me, but then again I guess even though I am college educated, I can't be expected to reach your high exacting standards. 

Sandi

The Born Readers

Outside of a dog a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

VInce, I was offended by

VInce, I was offended by your reply to FF as well.  It feels like you are attacking those or condescending to those who disagree by using such terms as Romance Writing 101.  

Also, I would just like to say that education in and of itself does not give anyone a reason to condescend to others.  If anything, a high educastion is humbling and shows a person how much they do not know and the wisdom to realize that there are many, many people smarter than them in all walks and shapes of life.  Whether a romance reader has some advanced degree or is not, romance readers are not dumb nor are romance authors.  Nor are women.

AKA Merri
Family Challenge Team: The Spine Breakers with my dh Glenn AKA Phaedrus

I Think There is a Straw Man Here

 

Hi:

I see a straw man here. Surprised

     Where did I ever make a claim about my education? Do I say anywhere what my education is?  Show me. All this talk about me "claiming" this and and me "Claiming" that and yet I don't know where I've claimed anything of the sort.  These are ad hominine arguments on myself. Frown

      Remember please: I made a claim about not liking the use of the word "wryly". Can't I do that?  Embarassed

      The use of "wryly" does annoy me. This is a true statement.  Now,  because I made that statement, some people have posted saying that I am wrong. Not only is my position wrong but that one cannot show a "wry" example.

     So I showed what I think is an example. That's not an attack on a person. These are responses to people who have claimed that I was wrong. Can I not respond? If you want to say that I am wrong, then I will maintain the right to perhaps show that I was actually correct and perhpas you were wrong. That's what happens when you post.

     I will have to agree that saying Romance 101 was probably flippant.  But that's a cliché I hear all the time in various fields, for example,  "That's Plumbing 101" or "That Memory Management 101" when you can't find your keys and your wife finds them for you. Sealed

     It seems to me that I have been discussing the argument while others have be attacking me personally.  I didn't make any comments about education. I didn't make any comments about women. I would like to see people who disagree attack the argument and not the person. That is the way to arrive at a better understanding of the issue at hand.

Thanks,

Vince

“Romances are the emotional vitamins of the soul.” Vince

Claiming might not be the right word

Ok...i'll grant that, but unfortunately the written word doesn't not allow for the inflections that the verbal word does.  When you read you infer things, and I will admit that maybe I should say that I inferred you meant..... rather than saying you claim....  

 I would also think that at some time you have stated about your career and therefore that leads one to think of education needed to have had that type of career....but as I'm not going back over 2 years of postings to prove something one way or the other I will apologize....but I do have the right to my opinion, and in my opinion your response to FF was rude, and deserving of an apology.  In my opinion you like to degrade women, and the romance world in general.  I have inferred you read romance so as to write a romance, and if that be the case best of wishes to you, and may it be a best seller, but it won't be residing in my TBR.   

Sandi

The Born Readers

Outside of a dog a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx

Whoa

I just happened to drop in here and I've got to say enough mud has been slung around to cover everyone.  Rude seems to be going both ways.  I hope you'll all stop and think -- we're here about romance -- love, laughter, and song.

Sandi -- you made some pretty serious accusations. Can't quite believe you would say that about someone you don't even know -- and in a public place like this.

Janet Tronstad
www.JanetTronstad.com

A Dry Creek Courtship, RT Top Pick, Sept '09
Snowbound in Dry Creek, RT Top Pick Oct '09
A Calico Christmas in Dry Creek (historical) coming in November '09

I do not understand your

I do not understand your inflections either but the word wry is not in everyday vocabulary but it is an elegant word nevertheless. Using terms like lazy and noncreative seemed to me as you attacking an author. And then Romance 101 too. It is hard not to read condescension into the choice of your vocabulary. It doesn't matter to me personally if you like wry or not but it is the inflammatory choice of words that prevents me from having a meaningful, stimulating discussion about the often interesting issues you sometimes choose. Showing versus telling is a great topic but I can't go there because your choice of words already comes loaded with connotations. Maybe you did not mean it that way but words like lazy and your response to FF closes down what could be an interesting discussion. I prefer to just discuss the topics and not have it so personally directed.

AKA Merri
Family Challenge Team: The Spine Breakers with my dh Glenn AKA Phaedrus

The buck stops here

I have emailed Vince, and I would request that as of now we retire this discussion.  I will be disallowing further commentary asap.

Jayne

Community Manager
"We cannot really love anybody with whom we never laugh"—Agnes Repplier

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